This is TMI but whatever:
I am a feminist.
I'm also a sub.
I understand that in being submissive, I am adhering to a stereotype that is expected of women. Feminism is about having that choice, sure, but it is ultimately about understanding where expected gender roles come from, and not being dominated by them.
Like I said:
Quote:Im not saying can't do it, or that she shouldn't want to, but she needs to at least be aware of where that role comes from
(07-10-2010, 03:33 PM)Profanisaurus Wrote: [ -> ]Except there's literally nothing in my post to suggest that I think my way is better.
I said, twice, actually, that there's nothing wrong with women who want to dress in a traditionally provocative way, but they should understand that this comes from a social expectation that stems from male dominance.
I never said anything about "all other girls" or about the right or wrong thing to do, just that if you're behaving in a particular way, you should be aware of where those behaviours have come from. That, actually, has little to do with gender, but since Djanjo brought up his utterly pretend definition of feminism, I felt the need to defend real feminism.
they should" understand but im sure most of the girls just don't care and probably just dress that way because they want to get attention. and if it stemed from male dominance then its not any of us males faults that its become that way, we were born into that time.. so when females rant about that sort of stuff, it seems pointless to "me" at least..
(07-10-2010, 03:36 PM)Butch Wrote: [ -> ]The discussion has reminded em of somethign else I hate: the word feminism. Nothing wrong with feminism, it's a good thing, but the word itself drives me insane. 
I actually wanted to revisit this conversation, since I think we had this before!
I won't be able to explain it as well as this:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/...lusionary/
Quote:There’s no law that says only one box can be ticked here, and it’s hugely important not to get sucked into thinking that one choice excludes the others. A major reason that most populist debate in the corporate media (and in online forums too) is a pitiful sham is that way too many questions are argued on an either/or basis, instead of acknowledging the probability of a both/and stance. The either/or method of framing a debate is technically referred to as a “false dilemma” [more], and is one example of a logical fallacy.
As to why feminism requires a distinct agenda within the equalist movements? The special and distinct problem of misogyny both oppressing and directly harming women, pure and simple. Unless misogyny is directly addressed and acted against, general equalist activism will not be enough.
Also:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/...important/
Focussing on one problem is not ignoring another; there are actually a lot of male feminist allies who also make a point to discuss male roles in society too; but it should be men who create these spaces, not women. In the same way that it should be women who create spaces to discuss misogyny, not men. Women and men can have input on both, but because these are problems that specifically face these groups, the "reaction" groups, so to speak, should also be specific.
(07-10-2010, 03:43 PM)PenguMasta Wrote: [ -> ] (07-10-2010, 03:33 PM)Profanisaurus Wrote: [ -> ]Except there's literally nothing in my post to suggest that I think my way is better.
I said, twice, actually, that there's nothing wrong with women who want to dress in a traditionally provocative way, but they should understand that this comes from a social expectation that stems from male dominance.
I never said anything about "all other girls" or about the right or wrong thing to do, just that if you're behaving in a particular way, you should be aware of where those behaviours have come from. That, actually, has little to do with gender, but since Djanjo brought up his utterly pretend definition of feminism, I felt the need to defend real feminism.
they should" understand but im sure most of the girls just don't care and probably just dress that way because they want to get attention. and if it stemed from male dominance then its not any of us males faults that its become that way, we were born into that time.. so when females rant about that sort of stuff, it seems pointless to "me" at least..
I'm not blaming men, though. Men and women should both be aware of gender roles, and also be aware of how you can fight damaging ideals.
Society is, ultimately, capable of change. Look at us now, actually. While women are still treated as a minority (despite making up roughly half of the population, obviously), we're way, way further ahead than we used to be. But to get further, people as a whole need to understand their role in subjugation.
This doesn't just apply to gender issues, it applies to any issues of inequality. If things were just allowed to continue because "that's how it is", then we'd still have slavery. Hell, I wouldn't be able to vote if things maintained the status quo for the sake of it.
Ultimately, regardless of gender, race, sexuality, anything - you should stand up for what you believe, and pursue change. Allowing things to remain as they are when you know that they're problematic isn't as bad as being openly bigoted, but it's still pretty bad.
(07-10-2010, 03:52 PM)Profanisaurus Wrote: [ -> ] (07-10-2010, 03:43 PM)PenguMasta Wrote: [ -> ] (07-10-2010, 03:33 PM)Profanisaurus Wrote: [ -> ]Except there's literally nothing in my post to suggest that I think my way is better.
I said, twice, actually, that there's nothing wrong with women who want to dress in a traditionally provocative way, but they should understand that this comes from a social expectation that stems from male dominance.
I never said anything about "all other girls" or about the right or wrong thing to do, just that if you're behaving in a particular way, you should be aware of where those behaviours have come from. That, actually, has little to do with gender, but since Djanjo brought up his utterly pretend definition of feminism, I felt the need to defend real feminism.
they should" understand but im sure most of the girls just don't care and probably just dress that way because they want to get attention. and if it stemed from male dominance then its not any of us males faults that its become that way, we were born into that time.. so when females rant about that sort of stuff, it seems pointless to "me" at least..
Ultimately, regardless of gender, race, sexuality, anything - you should stand up for what you believe, and pursue change. Allowing things to remain as they are when you know that they're problematic isn't as bad as being openly bigoted, but it's still pretty bad.
these lines are smart.
:: also how inventions and life itself changes drastically.
edit: that brings up something else too. I hate when people don't stick up for what they believe in or even stick up for themselves. (which I do on the internet and get bashed for.. and its called bitching apparently, but face to face theres no way somebody would act the same, haha) when somebody doesn't agree with me or doesn't have the same opinion, I AT LEAST try to converse with them, and try to get on the same page and try to understand why they don't have the same opinion. ill then give my side, and see if they agree, if we still don't agree on the same things then thats fine, I will AT LEAST know the reasons why. its always good to ask questions, and I do that like every single day for awhile now.. because it really gives you a knowledge basis.
lol it's kind of amazing how a lot of guys think there are goosetepping "feminazis" that they've never met and don't exist because they see them on TV or something
also don't forget to throw around vague pointless sentences like "i like ___, but i hate when it's taken too far" (usually the person who says this usually thinks it's always or at least more-often-than-not taken too far) (what kind of a point is this supposed to make, do you think the people who do "take it too far" (not they really exist as anything other than a figment of pop culture's imagination, in the case of feminism) are actually saying to themselves "yeah, you know, i like ____ but i think i need to take it too far," it doesn't prompt any kind of intelligent discussion or response and dehumanizes a viewpoint into something crazy)
(that was a lot of parenthesis)
Or we've seen said examples of feminazis, but we know its a rare case..
and for the like but taken to far, once again ^
the thing is that the people who 'take it too far' aren't usually real activists, its usually just people who claim to be feminists and get the entire point wrong due to oversimplifying the concept combined with a lack of research. it really doesn't cause any harm but its still really annoying.
(07-10-2010, 04:18 PM)Flannel_Bastard Wrote: [ -> ]Or we've seen said examples of feminazis, but we know its a rare case..
and for the like but taken to far, once again ^
i really hope you didn't just go "taking it too far" to a guy who just explained why the idea of even saying that is stupid and can't possibly lead to any kind of reasonable discussion between two parties who hold a disagreement, as though i'm some kind of crazed irrational strawman
I also dislike how "gay" means "shit" or "lame" and so on
though im guilty of using the phrase
i know this isn't specifically the topic of discussion
Quote:I am a feminist.
I'm also a sub.
this actually seems relatively common to me - that is, sexuality and personality existing in kind of contrasting roles
when it came to standard relationship matters or every day life things, my ex was a lot more dominant and I was much more passive; however, the second things came into the bedroom, things switched around completely; she became a lot more submissive and I became a lot more dominant. not to the traditionally thought of dom/sub extent, but it was still pretty prevalent
ok
anyway
anti-feminism is usually pretty dumb ~
(07-10-2010, 05:01 PM)Sambo Wrote: [ -> ]I also dislike how "gay" means "shit" or "lame" and so on
though im guilty of using the phrase
i could turn this back and say that I dislike how gay is used as a term for homosexual, since it actually means happy
it's just a word
(07-10-2010, 04:53 PM)DrSlouch Wrote: [ -> ] (07-10-2010, 04:18 PM)Flannel_Bastard Wrote: [ -> ]Or we've seen said examples of feminazis, but we know its a rare case..
and for the like but taken to far, once again ^
i really hope you didn't just go "taking it too far" to a guy who just explained why the idea of even saying that is stupid and can't possibly lead to any kind of reasonable discussion between two parties who hold a disagreement, as though i'm some kind of crazed irrational strawman
Yeah I did, because its your opinion the phrase is stupid..
Also apparently the goosestepping feminists little hide out is in Rhode Island. They are mainly religious and will yell at girls who dress rather slutty in the malls.
I put them under "stupid people who need common sense" because honestly one can not really dictate how one dresses if you don't know them.
I dislike people who say "it's just a word"