We were all a newcomer to the world of sprites, and I guarantee we couldn't survive in a place like this. When you're new to pixels the first thing you're naturally going to do is all the things various TSR members hate: edits.
Taboo here but be honest, we've all done them when we first started. Its like toddlers who use tracing paper and coloring books.
Because we are a quality community (although I am disapointed in the lack of ACTUAL "sprite" making from our best, but that's an argument for another time) I think a smart idea would be to calmly handle the begginners by directing them to a community that deals with them, like pre-school before joining our ranks.
So how about it? Does anyone know of another sprite community that would be good for these guys? We can even add it as a rule: "Don't posts edits here! Post them at ..." like that. This way there is no fuss and its no longer our problem. They'll eventually gain experience and take shot here once more.
Plenty of beginning artists eyeball things, true. But you don't post tracings and studies as if they're your own work, and you certainly don't post them as standalone pieces.
I'm not sure how useful making edits is for study, though. I mean, copying a style, cool; doodling over someone else's work... ehhh. You certainly don't pull that in any other medium, and I find it difficult to believe that it really does much to improve someone's understanding of pixel art. I won't deny that I've copied drawings as studies before - in fact, I still do it occasionally - but I always have a goal in mind, you know? If I'm copying a comic panel I'll do it in simplified shapes and try and see why the artist set out the panel that way. Or I'll copy an established artist's drawings for a couple pages and then do an original drawing in their style, so that I can better understand why they've made the stylistic decisions that they have.
What, specifically, does editing help you improve? A lot of people who do edits seem to ignore the structure and colour usage and, well, basically anything useful from the original sprites, so I'm really not understanding how it's helpful, even as an exercise.
I'm perfectly prepared to eat crow on this if there's something I'm missing here, because as I've said a lot, pixel art is something that I'm pretty ignorant about - there's some stuff I've picked up that can be applied from conventional drawing, but there's a lot of stuff specific to pixel art that I don't know anything about at all.
I do agree that people can get a bit too vitriolic about this, but honestly, after the hundredth SephirothTH (he's a red sonic with more spikes original character plz don steel), I can imagine people's patience getting a little strained.
I don't like the idea of creating some sort of daycare for beginners. It seems to me that'd lead to some sheezyart-esque "OMG NO CRITS PLEEZ" mentality which is ultimately far more detrimental than some people swearing at you for being unoriginal.
Edits concern us since they deal with sprites and pixel art. I for one don't hate edits, you might actually notice I do quite a few and I don't consider it a taboo subject, and I don't think any of us are hiding anything: I think the reason we express our dislike for the novice edits we see is because we in fact remember doing them, and we think it was a waste of time in a way, and we want members to not waste their time.
Yes, depending on how you do edits and what your goal is, editing can be constructive if it's an observational exercise, like working over somebody's work in an attempt to camouflage your edit in theirs, or trying to replicate aspects of style, of technique from a sprite to learn. If it serves another goal other than observing and studying a subject, then it won't go very far.
You see, if the people in question told us what they were studying when they were doing the edit, if it is a study that they're doing of course, and it could be possibly tolerated. I'm tired and I'm not sure if I made myself clear, I'll have a go at rewriting this later.
The problem we have here, is not the definition of an edit, but the mindset of the editor.
Just as you said Chris, many of the "higher-ups" have done edits before. Most of the time there were for comedic purposes, and not to be taken seriously, and on very rare occasions they are "observational exercises". However, just as you brought in how our mindset might play into hating a sprite due to the fact that we "remember doing them, and we think it was a waste of time in a way", you also have to consider the mindset of the other end, the beginner. I remember when I did edits, and my mindset was that I was creating something completely original, and it looked good too. Heh, very much not the case, for as I matured in both age and art ability, I realized quite how foolish that I was, as it was not original and they certainly did not look good. Judging by how most beginner's act, I would say it is safe to assume that they too thing that they are "creating something completely original, and it looked good". I was fortunate enough not to have come across this site at that point in my life, and thus spared myself some shame and lack of respect, and I learned on my own that edits were complete refuse. These people, however, are not fortunate in this way, for they think in the mindset that they have and will post these things here without first checking what sort of community this is.
(Just going to say that editing as an "observational exercise" is completely dumb in my opinion as well, if I want to do an observational exercise, I will look at another sprite and try to replicate it without doing it pixel for pixel, not just use the sprite as a base to go off of)
Which brings us to the community discussion. I personally believe edits to be utter refuse, but I know my opinion is neither the opinion of all, nor is it necessarily a correct opinion, it's just my opinion. Under my opinion, I think any sort of community that is more accepting of edits in a way so as to maybe, "hold their hand along the way", is not necessary, as I myself was able to come to the conclusion that edits were dumb and turn myself around to doing original stuff. I will, however, cede that there is a great disadvantage to my situation. I am currently 19, and I know that most of the people here are much better than I am. Most have had the advantage of more time to hone their skills. Maybe some of these people were completely shut out (like the mindset of TSR) when they posted edits when they were younger, forcing them to go under some self evalutation relatively early. Maybe these people had a system more akin to what you are proposing Koopaul, and thus were able to figure out edits were bad early as well. Or maybe some people just figured out edits were bad much earlier than me :I. Whatever the case, we can not know what is best for others, only they can know.
As much as I hate to say it, but dA is so far gone in the pixel department, that it pretty much is what you are proposing Koopaul. I don't think it is necessary to find other communities when dA and Sheezy made themselves into what they are. dA and Sheezy are the best bet for someone who wants their hand held through editing sprites.
(Just noting that I still believe its completely irrational to have a site like these for pixel editing)
this is a crappy idea tbh
Imagine that tSR is, like, a kind of art gallery and the members are the artists that showcase their stuff. In your post, you say that edits are a way to begginners start pixeling, right? That's okay, but you don't need to show them. Do you think that the artists showcased doodles and sketches on those galleries? (That is, unless the gallery also accepts sketches; my bad if that is true.)
If you're doing something for practice, then it's better not to show it (unless you're certain that it won't cause any problems for you and for others). Take me, for example. I also started by editing stuff from games, but did I show any edit on tSR? No.
You're kinda right at saying that edits are a way to getting into pixeling, but showing them like they were the most revolutionary thing that ever existed in the whole world is not a good attitude to have.
tl;dr
sprite edits are fine. claiming they're pixeling its not. claiming ownership over them isnt either, and pretend you have any kind of merit for doing one is retarded.
I'm not suggesting we MAKE a place for begginners, I'm saying we find a place that already exists.
On the topic of edits, I think I had a very different history than you guys. Back in 2001 Pixeltendo was a very different community. Everyone was a begginner, we made edits, recolors, sprite comics and celebrated them. But we grew up and got onto bigger better things.
Eventually our goal was to make some awesome sprites for our awesome site. (something people don't care to do anymore but I digress) Point is edits will not improve your skills but they will introduce you to pixels, give you a feel for how things work.
Remember when you used to trace your hand and make a turkey out of it? That took no skill, yet when you went to show mommy and daddy you expected them to be proud.
I believe edits are important for the developmental process of a spriter and they need to be in a community with other people like them, just as I once was.
So, you're suggesting that instead of harshly discouraging new spriters and going into the whole thats not a custom its an edit (Personally custom is a silly confusing term, but thats another matter altogether) routine, that instead people should tell them they are not yet ready for TSR yet and dump them on another forum that might tolerate them more?
If so I support this idea. And know of about two places that might work.
Not that my words have any weight here since I pretty much lurk around here and read all the advice given to other sprites.
(12-04-2010, 05:26 PM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]Back in 2001
i dont really think you actually get the point in wich Specifically SPRITE edits are wrong. its not a matter if you started with them or not, or if you continue to make them even after all these years.
let me put it this way: sprite edits and beads that mimic sprites are two similar issues: they certainly took time, they do need a degree of skill in order to produce a decent result, but ultimately they are not going to improve you as a creative agent.
sure you can go ahead and scream "shit i am not suposed to reinvent spriting as we know it am i" and certainly no, you're not suposed to. nor even forced, since thats something that eventually /you/ decide and set as your goal.
sprite edits are the answer from all those extremely distinguished gentlemen who cant afford to just sit, study and/or develop content on their own, take the feedback from people, asume mistakes, evaluate their performance and so on. specially in an art medium such as pixel art/spriting where several amounts of atention and time spans are commonly required, its easy to run out of attention and simply let a "fuck this shit" out of your guts and take the shortest shortcut posible.
and that shortcut is taking a sonic sprite, painting it black and call it shadow.
now, you also say that "hey we're beginers give us a break". no shit sherlock you're into sprite edits. should i asume that editing models when learning 3D modeling would speed up your learning process would it? when you just modify someone's book and add random strings of your own breed that would make you a better writter?
our task here, as the spriters resource is to guide, teach and or instruct begginers into why sprite edits should be avoided at all cost and why they should never rely on them.
But I think your wrong. Let me see if I'm getting this right you assume that people make edits because they are lazy?
"its easy to run out of attention and simply let a "fuck this shit" out of your guts and take the shortest shortcut posible."
But I believe it's because they don't know how to make customs yet. That or they are not sure how to properly approach it. Where to start and how.
When someone edits a sprite they're looking at a real sprite, taking it apart, finding out what fits and what doesn't.
See I think you assume I consider those "half-assed" edits real work. I don't.
I consider them experiments. They have no place here, but I believe it is healthy for everyone to start there and work up.
On another note: look at my
Deviantart account. See my avatar, that shitty animated gif I was too lazy to change? See that running animation? Yup those are an edit of Sonic legs. See that scarf? That's an edit from... well I forgot, its been a while. But you see I didn't know how to make legs run right. I tried really hard by myself simulating that motion and it never animated right, but after editing Sonic's legs I got a better understanding of how to make proper leg movement myself. It's not as good of a learning experience just to try to copy something, editing those legs was like training wheels and it helped me greatly.
EDIT: didn't exactly read the entire thread until now.
I can see where editing can be a good thing, it can give you a basic understanding of how pixel art and spriting works.
I still stand to my point where you should only edit if you do it heavily, recoloring, splicing or tracing can really just suck a cock for all I care. You can pretty much experiment with alot of the techniques used in spriting as long as you know what you are doing without making it look nearly the same as the original sprite (Hi shitty sonic edits! Hi Fakemon!).
There should be a beginners board that allows edits to an extent, but I don't think it'll do any good unless the mindset of this community changes.
(12-04-2010, 10:20 PM)Diogalesu Wrote: [ -> ]There should be a beginners board that allows edits to an extent, but I don't think it'll do any good unless the mindset of this community changes.
I personally feel like something like this might be in order;
I'm not super active on here, but I do browse around quite frequently and notice that, as it is, there's a very strident mentality that, although inspired by a good cause, isn't in any way
at all a way I'd want to deal with people personally. (and I don't)
Do I think that edits, frankensteins and recolours are in any way beneficial? The only cases in which I've seen them as beneficial were the ones where a person fully capable of producing something entirely on his own was doing some zany experiment; like fixing the flaws on commercial sprites, or giving them much better palettes.
In my opinion 95% of the people who just start
-won't- learn to get better by working on stuff like edits and frankensteins.
But truth to be told? I have strong doubts about how efficient the "lets curse them out and lock their threads immediately"-method of trying to let them learn the hard way is either.
When it comes to replying to/dealing with "noobs" aggressively, I feel that you're more prone to flush out personalities than quality, do I believe that being harsh/aggressive can work? Yes, for certain people.
To summarise my final suggestion/pov;
1. I have my doubts about just sending them to another community, would a community that is very open to edits/recolours really be a good place to learn?
2. I think that the often aggressive mentality I've seen around often can be effective in helping some people, but is just as effective at chasing people away, people genuinly interested in getting better will listen even when you're not aggressive, people who aren't? why care about those?
3. I think that having some method that'll keep people around long enough to actually realise what TSR is about might be much more effective in getting them to learn to sprite better, if a person leaves after posting their first thread due to how hostile the reaction was, I highly doubt we managed to make that person decide to get better, I feel that it just means they'll try and do exactly what the first post suggests, they'll find a community that does accept them for what they do.
I don't really care what happens one way or another, but I think that TSR as a community can afford being more open to the less gifted, as far as I'm aware we've alienated a lot of high-quality sites already, so I don't see why we'd want to do that to the lower-tier people as well.
Peace out.
This:
Quote:2. I think that the often aggressive mentality I've seen around often can be effective in helping some people, but is just as effective at chasing people away, people genuinly interested in getting better will listen even when you're not aggressive, people who aren't? why care about those?
is something that I feel bears repeating.
Some people are getting way too venomous about this than is even remotely necessary. I'm not suggesting we plaintively mewl at new people, but why not give them a bit more credit and
explain what's wrong with doing edits rather than throwing our toys out of the pram and screaming EDITS ARE WRONG BECAUSE THEY ARE (AND ALSO FUCK YOU)?
But, y'know
not a spriter
why do I even come here, gosh get out Gillian
(12-05-2010, 07:46 AM)Tachikoma Wrote: [ -> ]something that I feel bears repeating.
I feel bears repeating
Rather than NEWBIE NOOK why don't we pass it off as a "Spriting Workshop"? Maybe an area of the forum that has short little crash courses on pixelart techniques alongside critique threads and in-depth analysis?
However, you probably want the person posting their work to be honest and explicit in admitting how long they've been spriting before they post their work. I mean I've been hanging around this community for years and have no idea what "dithering" refers to off the top of my head :/
Hi, newcomer here.
I'm not new to the world of sprites itself. I can tell you this much:
I still do edits. This is because all of my attempts at custom sprites come out with varying results. Some stuff I've made I liked a lot. Others, not so much. I also don't really like to "study" sprites so much because then it feels like I'm just copying their style, at which point, why not just do edits? I would get the same effect and it'll probably look more professional, because it's based from something professional. (Just my mentality)
That being said, getting back to the original point of this thread, your edited sprites are not original creations (or at least not fully original, some small bit of creativity definitely does go into them), and you shouldn't be posting them as totally original art. Still, some people can be proud of their edits (I know I certainly am once in a while), and I think it'd be nice to have a place they can post them.