The VG Resource

Quote:Bastendorf and me are two different people...o-o

That's easy to forget when you're sharing an account. Why doesn't he get his own so we can tell the difference easier? Not like he's gotta pay for it.

@Bastendorf, I have to agree with Gors on the "it's my style" arguement. I used to be the same way (and in some cases, still am) and it took me a while to realize they weren't trying to make me change my style, just improve what I already had. When I look at my old sprites and compare them to my new ones, I see such an improvement, and it's all thanks to this place. These guys aren't trying to insult you, so don't laugh them off. Yeah, it seems harsh at times, but it works.

I looked at your dragon guy, and I see some shades that could easily be merged and adjusted for contrast without losing depth. I'll give it a shot after work and see if I can improve it a bit, and if you like it, you can apply it to the rest of the sprite. If not, then don't; I won't mind.

(05-09-2014, 07:39 AM)Midi Wrote: [ -> ]That's easy to forget when you're sharing an account. Why doesn't he get his own so we can tell the difference easier? Not like he's gotta pay for it.

But he did..he's written a couple of posts already.. but it -is- confusing, so it's understandable. = ]

(05-08-2014, 05:52 PM)Bastendorf Wrote: [ -> ]Such as with 'pillow shading'. You all seem to treat it as a negative thing, here. I could be wrong, but pillow shading has its uses, and have have very positive results.

If by positive results, you mean "filler to make something look finished when I don't know how to shade something in a way that makes sense." Pillow shading is not how light and shadow work in real life, so it looks wrong, incorrect, that "something's off here but I can't figure out what it is" itch in the back of your neck. It doesn't look stylistic, either: it's just a common amateur mistake. It's not positive results by a longshot.

(05-08-2014, 05:52 PM)Bastendorf Wrote: [ -> ]Allow me to clear something up, before I go any further. I've had to learn everything I know on my own. I have never had help, and there were no college courses to take on the subject. So everything you see in my sprite work has come from 11 or more years of figuring it out for myself.

I suggest learning how to look up resources you can read from and asking for help from artists that are better than you, because nothing stunts your growth more than being a hermit. There's like, thousands of years of knowledge from people learning what makes good art good, and if you don't try to find it or can't find it, you're just putting yourself at a severe disadvantage and will never reach your potential! There's only so much you can figure out yourself. And you don't need college courses because you have the internet (I'm pretty far off from being an art major myself). tSR itself currently doesn't have the best resources to learn from, but...there's definitely stuff out there.

(05-08-2014, 05:52 PM)Bastendorf Wrote: [ -> ]As it stands, I believe that you cannot fix my sprite work without ruining it. Prove me wrong. I would love to be wrong.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to be really good at sprites this size but I'm interested in trying
(It might take awhile though because big sprites take forever)

.... *blinks* Ohhhh, I read that wrong. >_< Stupid me.

i've actually seen a type of pillow shading in a new game, Project X Zone. it's used on a Mettaur. i'd like to see the character sprites in more detail at some point.

Quote:Man, it's been quite a long time since a newcomer's pulled the 'This Is My Style' card, and while I really want to help you, I think I need to shake up the things a bit.

You're mistaken. It's just a style. a style in a whole range of styles I use.

Quote:Drop this attitude.

Didn't have one until now. Don't assign a trait on me without reading ALL of my posts.

Quote:Energy balls and Lamps.

Please read all of my everything.

Quote:We are helping zye with our knowledge, right? But you'll never be able to properly teach with such attitudes.

Nor will you because all you're doing is attacking the style he's using for this sprite. See, I'm not the only one who can make baseless claims.

Quote:As for the dragon sprite you made, the colors are so dark and close together that you probably could leave with 3 or 4 shades, without changing their hue.

Please read all of my everything.

@Skatchasaurus

Quote:Consider this: even though I've been drawing for 20+ years

How old do you think I am? I'm not a kid. I've been drawing for just as long. I only started pursuing my life long dream of being a game dev in '03.

@StarSock64
Please read all of my everything, thank you.

here's one with a green background and i fixed the colors that should have went away

here's me and Gor's versions of white. which looks better?


...*head-desks*

---

(05-09-2014, 11:24 AM)Midi Wrote: [ -> ].... *blinks* Ohhhh, I read that wrong. >_< Stupid me.

you're not stupid, i thought gor and the other guy was saying it all to me at first as well.

---

Bas is irritated now because it seems that you guys skipped over his second post. reply to the latest posts please so things don't get drudged up needlessly, please...

(05-09-2014, 11:54 AM)Bastendorf Wrote: [ -> ]Please read all of my everything, thank you.

Hmm, you're coming off as kinda butthurt. I really don't want to lose my temper here,
but I'm getting a bit frustrated by your attitude. Still, I'll keep this post calm. I'm not really sure if you don't know
how to react to criticism or if you're trying to be aggressive. Clinging on to mistakes
just because they are made by you doesn't help, because you should learn from mistakes. And they can be hard to spot by yourself because you will always have a
rose tinted view to some degree of your own work. Therefore, the best way to learn
is to ask someone else for an unbiased opinion, and this is why you should listen to criticism.

From a few threads of mine back:



This is a sprite I made. I posted it here to get criticism.



After that it turned out like this.
This is the best example I can think of, because it clearly shows how much
criticism helped me. I can only hope you will start thinking the same way.

EDIT: Zye, it looks better, but the red is kinda hard to distinguish from the background. Perhaps you could try making the background blue or teal or something?

Palidin, Bas and i don't see our way of doing it as "wrong," but just another way. it may not be the "best" way, but we like what we were doing. I liked my sprite looking like a 90's/early 2000's game instead of Pokemon #2239 of today. I'm just seeing what i can do with you guys' way of spriting atm. And bas seems butthurt because his last post was glossed over, as he said to me. everyone's harping on what he said at first and forgetting what he said after.

EDIT: though, color count and shading is what i mostly mean as another way. bad techniques are another story that do need to be tweaked on our part.


nice, btw = )

(05-09-2014, 12:50 PM)zye1984 Wrote: [ -> ]Palidin, Bas and i don't see our way of doing it as "wrong," but just another way. it may not be the "best" way, but we like what we were doing.

Alright. Perhaps I was foolish to write that rant when the focus of the thread should
be the sprites, not an argument. I think you have described the situation perfectly in the part I quoted, but the reason we want you to do it the "best" way is because we
want to see you grow as an artist. If it means taking the fun out of spriting, it wouldn't be very good, but if you're okay with our advice, then I would encourage you to follow it.

Pal, i like you. = j but yeah, i'm listening, and i'll work on what you guys say. but, right now, it's slowing me down immensely. i have an entire sheet to do, and i'm stuck on the first one because it keeps changing. i'm not even done finishing the other parts to him. i'm not even sure how big to make the gun.

artist? someone said that pixel art wasn't "art." = P and this is why i don't like "right ways" or "wrong ways," b/c there isn't such a thing in art if you display what you want to display. i must say my dull colors were a really bad choice, even though i still wish they could be moredull, at least on the leather, but that would mean more colors..

oh, and for the record, i want more shades of things because later, when the gun fires, i want to have a light effect on his whole body, and have it rather dynamic. too little shades and he'll just be a flat light color. = ) I just wanted that out there.

(05-09-2014, 01:07 PM)Paladin Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-09-2014, 12:50 PM)zye1984 Wrote: [ -> ]Palidin, Bas and i don't see our way of doing it as "wrong," but just another way. it may not be the "best" way, but we like what we were doing.

Alright. Perhaps I was foolish to write that rant when the focus of the thread should
be the sprites, not an argument. I think you have described the situation perfectly in the part I quoted, but the reason we want you to do it the "best" way is because we
want to see you grow as an artist. If it means taking the fun out of spriting, it wouldn't be very good, but if you're okay with our advice, then I would encourage you to follow it.

I...felt like popping my head in after reading these posts, and I kinda see where both parties are coming from. I'm assuming you, Bas, made the CPS2-scale dragon character whereas zye (the original poster) made the little anime-lookin' spaceman guy (which, nice throwback to the 80's sci-fi anime - real nice hi5 to u)

(05-09-2014, 11:54 AM)Bastendorf Wrote: [ -> ]@Skatchasaurus

Quote:Consider this: even though I've been drawing for 20+ years

How old do you think I am? I'm not a kid.

With posts like

(05-09-2014, 11:54 AM)Bastendorf Wrote: [ -> ]Please read all of my everything, thank you.

I can see how some people could assume that.
You're acting pretty juvenile towards legitimate posts that aren't necessarily disagreeing with you. Staff, and users who have a decent art background are giving input on the things posted.
I'm sorry if this is coming off a bit strong - but you're kinda taking it too strongly considering we're Internet people. We're not saying "Kill this artist IRL and steal his paintbrushes" we're just saying "Hey man it looks good but if you did [x] and [y] it'd look AWESOME"
Get used to accepting criticism, though - you'll be criticised in all aspects of your life at one point or another, whether you're a pixelartist, plumber or party animal. When you make your bed, comb your hair or have another person in the passenger seat of your car, you'll receive criticism. Criticism is life. It's shitty and no one likes it but it's life.
I understand that you may be proud of your work - and that's good! Especially when you're self-taught! But as an artist it's always good to be open to others' criticism, too - whether or not you want to apply that criticism immediately, take it into consideration for future works or ignore it completely is up to you.
The best answer in this scenario IMO would have been "Thanks for the comments and criticism - I'll take them into consideration"

By no means is anyone "shitting" on you guys, but if someone's posting a topic called "just something i'm working on.." and posting in a generally ho-hum "Well, I think I'm getting better" way -- posting a WIP on a forum like this generally implies that the piece is still being worked on and that compliments and criticism alike be made on it. zyr's post also implied that he was working on improving his work, and was looking to the outward-facing public for suggestions/help.
Frankly, Bas - the discussion didn't really turn to you until you were brought up by your friend, lol.

(05-08-2014, 05:52 PM)Bastendorf Wrote: [ -> ]As it stands, I believe that you cannot fix my sprite work without ruining it. Prove me wrong. I would love to be wrong.

This is...a really silly argument. I'm sorry. To you, Bas, it's perfect. In the mind of some artists, their completed work, in their perspective, will more or less always be perfect.

Every artist has their own opinion - their own perspective - and to some (in this instance, you, Bas) even the slightest change would ruin the piece altogether. For anyone to actually take on this challenge it's kinda...fruitless, really. :/

(Paladin kind of addressed it already but lol
"rose-tinted glasses" is one of the phrases I was looking for but I generally dont like to use too obscure figures of speech in general)

---

That said, I'll throw out my own C+C which is probably untimely here - but more like just parroting what everyone else has been saying.


I'll just keep this really vague: How does this guy move?
His pose appears kind of unnatural and doesn't really lend itself to natural-looking, flowing movement.

I'd suggest to try drawing stick-frames on paper or in MSPaint to get an idea of how the body parts should orient, and how they'd ideally flow. (Doesn't have to be now, this is your first piece; try it with future works - though it might help you in making the overall sheet)
If you're practicing, Bas may be able to point you in the right direction of getting figure poses right.

Also, you may want to try a different palette. If you're looking to emulate what you'd see on a handheld console, keep in mind the palettes need to stay bright and radiant in order to allow the player to see screen elements well, even in sunlight. Nonetheless, you also have X looking the way he does because the output of the PS1 was so small that the image would look big on a TV screen anyway and is going to be blown up. Also, X had to stick out from the generally colorful backgrounds, so his sprite had to use that bright white shade coupled with another radiant color depending on his upgrade.
That's why Zero's that solid cherry red (which BTW, you probably should use to ref as well in this instance)

Try placing the character against various backgrounds to see what I mean. :/

Eh I'm kinda shot from posting actual crit on Bas' dragon guy but lemme say it is kinda neat and gives off a real MONSTER vibe (that anthro fighting game made with Fighter Maker 2K) especially the "adventurer" variant

Uhm, I feel a bit guilty since I'm one of the people slowing you down, but anyway, I'm looking forward to you posting updates

Repost for those who don't read everything.

Quote: Quote:That's fair! A lot of us here started out by learning on our own and then later learned the correct way to do things.

You're not the bully I first thought you were. Smile

Quote:There is a very few number of situations where pillow shading is the correct technique to use and even fewer situations where it actually looks good.

Energy balls - Dragon Ball Z
Glowing eyes
Rotating Spikeballs on a Chain - Lots of games do this, Super Mario World is among them, if I'm not mistaken.
I'm sure there are more, and I could write an article on the proper use and methods for doing this, but that would take more than a single sitting.

Quote:I honestly kind of wish you would, just to see what kind of viable explanation there is for it.

Very well, I shall do so at the end of this reply.

Quote:That's not really a challenge I can take up, and there's a simple reason why: light doesn't work that way.

Why do you think it looks the way it does? When I had started, he was actually much brighter, and the details stood out, much like they do in his green chest. But I didn't like how bright he was, and though I knew what it would do to it, I tried darkening him anyway. Needless to say, it didn't go so well, so I decided I'd come back to it. Nearly a year later, I have yet to, as I can't find a way of keeping him dark and making him look good.
If you would like to give it a shot, I'll allow you to adjust his brightness and show me what to do with him, as long as you can keep him quite dark. He doesn't have to look like he's absorbing light, as he does right now, but I want to keep him on the darker side of the spectrum, and on the saturated side of things.


Here's the thing about my use of colors: I decided to section this part off so that those who don't wish to read it, can skip it.

As I started spriting and as the gaming industry was evolving around me, I decided to experiment with how my sprites look. I am not an idiot, nor is Zye. We can see the validity of your points.

I'm going to start out by saying it's stylistic. I can switch between minimal 8 bit, and 16 bit styles to suit what I'm trying to recreate with the looks of the sprites, and I can also ramp up the detail on the sprites I make, which usually means, the fully clothed version of my character for example, a large number of colors. I'll admit that I did throw in a few more colors just to piss all of you off, and get a good laugh out of your reaction, but save for two or three colors, the rest was all designed intentionally.

But Why?: Well, I've noticed a lot of you talking about x1 zoom, and how good it looks at x1 over zoomed in. And it's that reason exactly.
Before you freak out, I have a reason for the insanity. In normal cases, a massively detailed sprite would be a waste of time at x1 zoom, and look ugly. However, the only times in which I create a massively detailed, small sprite is in cases where I know for a fact that I'm not going to use x1 zoom.
Let me explain a little. I some times like to have games that are zoomed in at x2, or x4. So when I know that's what I'm going to be doing, I ignore x1 zoom, and ignore what it looks like at that zoom. Over time, I realized that the sprites from the 8-bit and 16-bit era leave something to be desired if the whole game is running at x2 zoom or more.

I'm not sure when it happened, but I eventually started taking existing sprite rips, Kirby's Aventure, for example, and seeing how realistic I could make it, and how it could look if it was touched up to be, in a way, HD. I quickly realized that it looks like crap, zoomed all the way out, but at 200% and above, it looks great.
I mentioned before that the industry was evolving, well, I figured out that GBA games and DS games have a zoomed in quality to them, and that's how I got started. Games CAN look good zoomed in. Nintendo proved that much. And when the sprite is closer, it's easier to make out the details that would normally be impossible to see. And I built on it from there. Learning to make sprites look good, zoomed in, rather than zoomed out.
I talked to Zye about it, and it seems like that's what he's shooting for, as well.

This isn't to say I don't know how to go minimal and make it look good at 100%, as I'm sure you figured out from my sprite, as flawed as it is. This is just a style I practice, and since Zye picked it up, I decided to show him how to work with it.

I am not in the least against being shown what to do. In fact, one of the main reason I even bothered to join this discussion is to join in with the learning and be shown some stuff, too.

As I know what I'm doing, I could easily relay what I learn to Zye as I have him on Instant Messenger and I can work with him directly.

Stop reading more into my motives than are there. I'm not aggressive, I'm not butthurt. I'm here to learn as much as Zye is, as all the points made on this thread are quite valid.

To reiterate, please DO show me how to use hue to improve me sprite, as I have a learning disability and need to see, first hand, what to do in my case. All that I have said, thus far, has been quite calm, and I will continue to be quite calm.

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I felt that, since I know Zye personally, and he linked me to this thread that I'd get involved and learn something, too, without making a new thread since the topic has already switched to advice and technique.

So please, by all means.

hehe, yes! i've already wondered how to get him to move. what i wanted was a stance that was hesitant but ready; his gun is going to be below his left hand there.

being that smash bros characters have a dash the first time you run from a stop, i was thinking he'd hop first, pulling with his left leg and pushing with his right, either swinging around a bit to start running or using a side hop (he's known fro strafing anyway) to get momentum to start the run. he's not a fast runner either.

(05-09-2014, 01:48 PM)Kosheh Wrote: [ -> ]I...felt like popping my head in after reading these posts, and I kinda see where both parties are coming from. I'm assuming you, Bas, made the CPS2-scale dragon character whereas zye (the original poster) made the little anime-lookin' spaceman guy (which, nice throwback to the 80's sci-fi anime - real nice hi5 to u)

I'll just keep this really vague: How does this guy move?
His pose appears kind of unnatural and doesn't really lend itself to natural-looking, flowing movement.

I'd suggest to try drawing stick-frames on paper or in MSPaint to get an idea of how the body parts should orient, and how they'd ideally flow. (Doesn't have to be now, this is your first piece; try it with future works - though it might help you in making the overall sheet)
If you're practicing, Bas may be able to point you in the right direction of getting figure poses right.

you're lookin' at my eldest palette. = ) I wanted to go for a dull look at first because he was always dull looking, but it just didn't work well. so now he's a brighter color with more contrast.

Quote:Also, you may want to try a different palette. If you're looking to emulate what you'd see on a handheld console, keep in mind the palettes need to stay bright and radiant in order to allow the player to see screen elements well, even in sunlight. Nonetheless, you also have X looking the way he does because the output of the PS1 was so small that the image would look big on a TV screen anyway and is going to be blown up. Also, X had to stick out from the generally colorful backgrounds, so his sprite had to use that bright white shade coupled with another radiant color depending on his upgrade.
That's why Zero's that solid cherry red (which BTW, you probably should use to ref as well in this instance)

Try placing the character against various backgrounds to see what I mean. :/

---

alright, from this point forward, no more arguing or saying someone's being a douche. noone is trying to be that way and the tones of people's texts are getting interpretted incorrectly. At this point, if one bitches about how the other is acting or anything of the sort, ignore it. Now, lets start talking about my sprite and what the heck i can do with it o-o