To demonstrate why RNG item generation and overpowered items are bullshit for competitive play of a game, let me break out an example from another Wii U game: Mario Kart 8.
Picture me being in fourth place with my friends being in first and second and a computer in third. It's the final lap, about half of the course to go, I get given a Bullet Bill. In fourth place. It's unheard of. So I breeze through three places with no problem all the way up to first with a little extra space, and hit another item box.
Bullet Bill. In first place.
I finish the race in first with a bullet bill, and they still have a quarter of the track to get through.
Not every item is overpower, not every item is a Bullet Bill, but it COULD be, and Mario Kart is a game that USUALLY is selective about who gets such powerful items, and even that can fail. Smash has NO means of having that kind of ability to determine who should or shouldn't be getting an item for an advantage.
The only way Items play could be less random (but still random nonetheless) is if they invented a type of stage where items spawned at very specific places, much like guns on the ground in a classic 3D shooter. Or even using a type that already has been used, the slow-moving platforms from Multi Man Smash or the balloons from the Credits scene. That way the item inbound is telegraphed, and it is harder to be taken by surprise... but then you STILL have the issue of who is positioned closest to the item, and who has the fastest character most capable of getting in there first.
There's no way it can win, it's way to random.
@Kriven: Well if you're going for a basic not-stupidly-overpowered Sakurai mode of itemsets and ignoring RNG spawning which DOES heavily affect the game if you're speaking from a "competitive" sense, as Koopaul is questioning...
The same players will still 95% of the time beat the same players I believe, the win ratio would hardly change even if the more skilled player at the vanilla game had almost no experience with items. It just adds nuisance. If you're not sure about how heavily RNG can impact competitive play or how serious Smash players take it, I want you guys who agree with this whole items thing to go do some research on stage selections at tournaments.
Go look at Smash 64, Melee, Brawl, and Wii U's banned stages. The slightest bit of RNG is heavily frowned upon, Pokemon Stadium 1 is even being considered for banning because it's transformations are RNG based. Keep in mind these are the same people who think so far ahead in intuitive planning for wins that they time the 20 seconds it takes Randall (the cloud) to make a revolution around Yoshi's Story (Melee).
I think having a designated item position is probably the opposite of balance. It would end up like the Magicant stage, with people camping near the Flying Man.
Honestly, the random spawn placement isn't as much of a problem as you guys are making it out to be so long as the items that spawn aren't ridiculously overpowered. As long as an item behaves in a predictable way and isn't an instant death, it's something which an opposing player should be able to overcome. It's just another attack at that point.
It can't keep going on forever, after all. We have four DLC as it is. Here's hoping for four more, but that's probably asking a lot, though the terminology "several" seems to imply more than one already, so we've got that going for us at least.
(06-25-2015, 10:04 AM)Kriven Wrote: [ -> ]I think having a designated item position is probably the opposite of balance. It would end up like the Magicant stage, with people camping near the Flying Man.
Honestly, the random spawn placement isn't as much of a problem as you guys are making it out to be so long as the items that spawn aren't ridiculously overpowered. As long as an item behaves in a predictable way and isn't an instant death, it's something which an opposing player should be able to overcome. It's just another attack at that point.
(06-25-2015, 09:58 AM)Iceman404 Wrote: [ -> ]If you're not sure about how heavily RNG can impact competitive play or how serious Smash players take it, I want you guys who agree with this whole items thing to go do some research on stage selections at tournaments.
Go look at Smash 64, Melee, Brawl, and Wii U's banned stages. The slightest bit of RNG is heavily frowned upon, Pokemon Stadium 1 is even being considered for banning because it's transformations are RNG based. Keep in mind these are the same people who think so far ahead in intuitive planning for wins that they time the 20 seconds it takes Randall (the cloud) to make a revolution around Yoshi's Story (Melee).
People will not stand for RNG they cannot activate or initiate by themselves (Green Missile, Turnips, 9) and will never deal with bullshit. I'd honestly hate to lose prize money over something that wasn't up to me or my opponent in every way possible because the slightest stuff makes a difference. This isn't even slight, is the problem you're missing... at high level play things will only be even more exaggerated.
I know you guys don't believe you're the first ones suggesting/thinking of this whole items in competitive play idea. SSBM and SSBB started with items allowed in tournaments, SSBB 2008 Evo launched with items and the scene became a horrible joke. That tournament is literally one of the primary reasons the Brawl scene DIED before it even had a chance to start, go look it up.
It's been tried and failed
I KNEW Roy and Ryu were made before the ballot even started, crossing my fingers and hoping " fanservice " will mean I won't be disappointed, I mean the two characters I want are two characters a TON of people want, c'mon! ( yes I'm aware one of the two got straight up rejected already but I think Sakurai changes his mind a lot so I still have a tiny bit of hope. )
(06-25-2015, 09:40 AM)Kriven Wrote: [ -> ]Why are you all assuming that items are all-or-nothing when I specifically said that some items are totally usable and fair? Obviously things like the Gust Bellows and the Drill aren't, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the Star Rod or the Fire Flower.
see, the thing is, smash 4 and brawl are already defensive-based games in the competitive community. why should the "fair" items be added if it makes a defensive game more defensive? it just makes the game boring to watch and boring to play if players are just waiting for each other to make a wrong move so that an item can be used/thrown.
Not relevant to the topic at hand, but PS1 isn't debated in Melee because it's based on RNG. It's because the transformations aren't very fair. It's basically a really good legal stage that transforms into several ones that would easily be banned on their own
RNG is also debated, but I brought that up because it was relevant to the discussion.
I'm sure like half the people in this thread wouldn't know what it's like to be drillshined into a large rock if I brought it up anyways...
http://nintendoeverything.com/details-fr...s-planned/
Probably a mistranslation, but
Quote:– Since Sakurai can’t keep the team together forever, there will only be several more characters
Quote:there will only be several more characters
Quote:several more characters
LOL
Here I was assuming it's just gonna be four DLC characters and the winner of the Smash Ballot, but it sounds like there's
a lot more incoming. oh no
i hope we get spongebob
I really hope Japan knows what dank memes are... I REALLY hope they're not trying to buy licenses to Shrek...
goku for smash pls. in exchange, mario and gang can be in resurrection of f. its the ultimate crossover!!!!1!
It doesn't matter what Smash game you play, this video is impressive...
![[Image: CFeO15OXIAEM9h9.jpg]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFeO15OXIAEM9h9.jpg)