The VG Resource

I see what you mean. As for the wing, though, I did draw the entire thing; this is based off a sketch I did earlier. I'm just not that good at drawing wings yet. ^^;

For a dragon to fly properly with membrane wings (in contrast to feathered wings like a bird), it needs a propatagium. This is an area on the anterior side of the elbow that is significant in flight speed, turning and landing, similar in purpose to but separate from the alula on an avian wing.


It is the red area highlighted below. Excuse the crappy 21 second MS paint drawing without limbs and proper anatomy.

I see what you mean. Thanks for that. But, to clarify, shadewings are not dragons; they're just related to them. They're more feline in body shape.

It is more down to the wing design rather than what the base creature is. If you add this sort of wing to anything it is something to consider.

For instance on bats like here: http://www.cawildlife911.org/_images/bat_diagram.jpg

We could have a long conversation on what is a dragon and what isn't as there is no clearly defined dragon base! But it is down to what the creator pictures it as.

Hope this helps.

Oh, I wasn't arguing or anything; it's just a common misconception that shadewings are dragons.

I mean, for all intents and purposes, Shadewings are dragons because that's the thing with which they are most identifiable. They may not be considered such in your universe's lore, but the critique isn't invalidated because it's "technically not a dragon" But I digress.

I imagine that Silversea is suggesting looking at anatomical reference to aid in drawing wings, and I definitely agree. The condition that I would suggest for using reference would be this: don't use other people's art as a reference, instead look at photographs and scientific diagrams as your main source, this way you can interpret and design based off of a real foundation instead of relying on second-hand information. Also, if they're supposed to be more cat-like, definitely study up on cat skeletal anatomy, musculature, and locomotion; it'll only help you in the long run. c:

(03-18-2015, 12:59 AM)Sketchasaurus Wrote: [ -> ]I mean, for all intents and purposes, Shadewings are dragons because that's the thing with which they are most identifiable. They may not be considered such in your universe's lore, but the critique isn't invalidated because it's "technically not a dragon" But I digress.

I imagine that Silversea is suggesting looking at anatomical reference to aid in drawing wings, and I definitely agree. The condition that I would suggest for using reference would be this: don't use other people's art as a reference, instead look at photographs and scientific diagrams as your main source, this way you can interpret and design based off of a real foundation instead of relying on second-hand information. Also, if they're supposed to be more cat-like, definitely study up on cat skeletal anatomy, musculature, and locomotion; it'll only help you in the long run. c:

I take a few issues with this.

One, shadewings are not dragons just because you find it easy to identify them with. Just because something is easy to identify with something else does not actually define it as that. It is my species, I designed it, and I am telling you guys they are not dragons. You even said yourself that dragons don't have a defined base, but shadewings do. Saying something is one thing just because it's easier to identify it like that is not only incorrect, it's sometimes offensive and downright lazy. I'm shocked to see such an attitude coming from longstanding members of this site where laziness is frowned upon. You're choosing to ignore given facts because you'd rather say "dragon". And why is it even easier? Why is "dragon" so much easier to say than "shadewing"?

Two, I never said the critique wasn't valid just because they are not dragons. I accepted the advice and thanked the post both verbally and with the thank button, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm not taking the advice.

Three, I've stated multiple times that they're not dragons, and now I have a second person trying to tell me that they are. Honestly, that feels very disrespectful to me, and I've just recently gone through another really bad experience with people disregarding things that I've said repeatedly. I don't know how I can possibly be more clear on this. I've even said it several times in this post alone. It's disrespectful that you're trying to change the definition of something that you didn't make up, and I'll be honest here, with the both of you trying to say they are dragons, it feels like you're ganging up on me.

Shadewings are not "for all intents and purposes" dragons, and don't try to tell me they are. You didn't make them. I did.



Now if we can just get that out of the way, let's get back to talking sprites.


I tried putting the propatagium onto the wing, and bent the wing back a bit, but I can undo that if it still looks weird to you. I made it lighter gray to show that there's no scales on top like the rest of the wing, so more light is passing through it. I know it looks flat; I'm working on that still, and I also need to fix the shading around the wing's limb. I'm thinking of removing the AA along the edge to see if that helps it look thinner, too.

I'm saying that it's an uninitiated person's first response to consider them as dragons purely at face-value, and getting indignant about a very simple and inconsequential tidbit is absurd. I'm not saying that they are dragons, nor am I trying to redefine it as such, simply put: all of the landmarks of the epitomal dragon are there and there is reasonable cause for people to consider it as such. Complete and total accuracy isn't important in conversation, understanding is; he said "dragon" and you knew what he was talking about, even though it's not correct, the message was received and understood.

It wasn't my intention to come off as dismissive towards what you have in mind for the species, and I didn't intend to come across as if I were giving you attitude. it isn't worth getting worked up about because it distracts from the conversation at large, but I need to address it because I feel that such a negative response is unwarranted.

Though I will state clearly to alleviate any doubt: I have no intention of getting into an argument, most of my input is given at face-value and is in no way intended to attack one's sentiments, ideas, or reputation; in addition to this, I prefer to make observations rather than stating my own opinion.

something looks a tad off in the overall shape and placement of facial features, I grabbed a handful of references that may be helpful.

in green is a literal interpretation based on the information provided solely in the sprite and the sprite only.

Whether Shadewings are technically dragons or cats or emperor penguins is irrelevant. They borrow features from several creatures, so those features should be anatomically correct. Griffons are not technically eagles or lions, but this is not an excuse to disregard avian and feline anatomy when drawing them.

OK, I'm trying not to lose my temper right now, so I'm going to attempt to explain this thread according to my point of view so you guys can see why I'm so frustrated.

Silversea Wrote:For a dragon to fly properly with membrane wings (in contrast to feathered wings like a bird), it needs a propatagium. This is an area on the anterior side of the elbow that is significant in flight speed, turning and landing, similar in purpose to but separate from the alula on an avian wing.

Advice for drawing a wing that I thanked both verbally and with the thank button.

Kelvin Wrote:But, to clarify, shadewings are not dragons; they're just related to them. They're more feline in body shape.

Simple clarification that shadewings are not dragons. Pointing it out very clearly.

Silversea Wrote:It is more down to the wing design rather than what the base creature is... We could have a long conversation on what is a dragon and what isn't as there is no clearly defined dragon base! But it is down to what the creator pictures it as.

Kelvin Wrote:Oh, I wasn't arguing or anything; it's just a common misconception that shadewings are dragons.

Redeclaring shadewings are not dragons and pointing out that I'm not trying to argue.

Sketchasaurus Wrote:I mean, for all intents and purposes, Shadewings are dragons because that's the thing with which they are most identifiable.

Saying they're dragons immediately after I said they weren't.

Sketchasaurus Wrote:I'm saying that it's an uninitiated person's first response to consider them as dragons purely at face-value... I'm not saying that they are dragons,

If Sketch was referring to Silversea's misconception, I thought we'd already gotten over with that, so there shouldn't have been a need to bring it up at all. And if he's talking about himself, there's no way he could have been uninformed because just a few posts above and on the same page, I pointed out twice that they are not dragons. Also, he just said they were dragons, and then said he didn't say that.

DragonDePlatino Wrote:Whether Shadewings are technically dragons or cats or emperor penguins is irrelevant. They borrow features from several creatures, so those features should be anatomically correct. Griffons are not technically eagles or lions, but this is not an excuse to disregard avian and feline anatomy when drawing them.

I know they borrow features from multiple species. That's the very point I was trying to make, that just because they have features in common doesn't mean they are dragons. Also, he says it's no excuse to disregard anatomy, but as I mentioned about several posts ago, I'd already thanked and accepted advice about anatomy, and in the immediately previous post, I'd made an attempt at fixing the anatomical error.

So for all this, it seems like people are reading what I say selectively and ignoring the rest. Points that I've made repeatedly are dismissed, and then I'm treated like I'm the one dismissing people's advice when all I'm trying to do is clarify a detail that for some reason has become a huge subject of debate.

Bottom line: I am not avoiding anyone's advice, shadewings are not dragons, and I was not disregarding anatomy; I just drew it wrong because I'm not a good artist.



Now, in response to Sketch's last post, the head right next to the ? is probably the closest to what I was going for. I'm practicing drawing outside of pixel art again, so I'm going to put together a multi-view reference sheet when I can. This should clear up the head shape if I can do it right, though I've also got an older pic of a shadewing's head:

It's a much older piece, so ignore the horn; they don't have those anymore since I couldn't find a reason to keep it, and it was just decorative at first. The mane now goes down to where the horn was. The ears are also smaller than I'd intended.

Any misconceptions on my part have been cleared so I hope everyone will forgive me for ignoring the above 5 or so posts and just getting to the sprite.


So with this



my advice would be not to have it so taut and straight unless you intend it to be that way. It should sort of bend in the middle, not be straight like a piece of cardboard.

Some more crappy 1 minute MS paint sketches for you to show how it usually works. Can always make you clearer ones if you want them.



PS, if your dragon's wing looks like the bottom right one the joints are probably broken, it is just a demonstration of how the membrane would go if the wing arm was really stretched out.  The propatagium tends to have more exaggerated stretching compared to the other membrane areas because it is stretched to a far greater degree just because of where it is on the arm. 

Basically the more space there is between the attaching points, the more stretched out the membrane is which means the bend is "flatter", but it is never a straight line. In contrast the less stretched out it is the deeper the bend. If you do need help with any wings (including feathered wings) do let me know.

Hope this helps.

Yeah, I tripped up a bit in what I said initially and what I meant. The Dragon definition when I used the phrase "for all intents and purposes" I meant that considering it as a dragon is the most practical and reasonable assumption. Regardless, I apologize for the miscommunication on my part and would rather focus more on the actual critique and constructive aspect and put this behind us.

The one with the ? next to it is my interpretation of the anatomy based on the sprite. The problem is that fewer animals have skulls that sit on top of their vertebrae in the same fashion that humans' do.
For example:

Notice how the spine connects at the back of the skull and is held horizontally instead of vertically.
going back to the example of the Water deer, which I think is a rather good profile to reference:

The angle of neck to skull is more perpendicular and in line with what you are aiming for.
And to be perfectly honest, I think the deer profile is more visually appealing than trying to force the feline angle.
although...

Thanks. And I'm sorry for getting all worked up about it. Not gonna go into details, but let's just say my home life has left me very sensitive to being called something I'm not or to perceived accusations, which extends into characters I make, so when someone calls a shadewing a dragon, it stirs up bad emotions. Again, I'm sorry for flying off the handle like that. I've honestly been trying for years t get my act together, but it's only coming along in little stretches at a time.

As for the neck and spine issue, I never realized that was an issue, since I've seen my own cats hold their heads upright with the head perpendicular to the spine, like a human, but then there's the parallel pose when they're stalking, so it seemed to me that they were just able to switch it. I've seen the same things in dogs, too.


I changed the stretchy skinny thingy and tried a new type of AA on it to make it look more like a thin piece of skin. Rather than the AA being inside the line, it's directly on it.

On another note, I've been thinking about my use of outlines, and I noticed how on some sprites, I'd have to switch to a darker "black" to fix contrast issues, but found out that on characters like Tartii, the selout stands out too much when darkened to fit her black tips. So, I tried something new, mixing outline shades in the same image:


I was also considering forgoing selout completely for a while, though it didn't look good on my small sprites, I still kept the change I tried on Tartii.

I'm still leaning towards selout, but I wanted to show this anyway and see what you think.

Sorry to beat a dead horse so late in the game, but there's just one thing that kinda pops out at me in all this. not to add kindling to the fire here, Kelvin, but for future's reference

(03-18-2015, 10:34 AM)Kelvin Wrote: [ -> ]It is my species, I designed it, and I am telling you guys they are not dragons

I'm...not sure how we, as we're not particularly mythical-beast enthusiasts are supposed to know what shadewings are without you telling us at first.
We're not supposed to easily just look at your avatar and think "ah, yeah - yep, that's a shadewing. right. i can identify a shadewing any day of the week now that i have seen approximately a fifth of one".

(03-18-2015, 05:26 PM)Kelvin Wrote: [ -> ]when someone calls a shadewing a dragon, it stirs up bad emotions

I wouldn't take it too personally, honestly. In fact, I'd try to embrace it and say "Why, that's not a dragon - it's a shadewing, a character I've created for my fictional work's universe. Let me tell you a little bit about shadewings". Then proceed to be the shadewing king.

The shadeking.

At first glance, I'd say that your character probably was a small dragon. A bit of a hairy one, but still draconian in nature. Now, I don't know a griffin from a sphinx so in the grand scheme of fantasy creatures I guess you could say I don't know my ass from my elbow.
We're not delegitimizing your self-created species - that was never anyone's intention. There's absolutely zero reason to get super-defensive about it. But we can't magically fathom your headcanon and readily accept it, knowing "yes, there's a difference between shadewings and dragons" right off the bat. Prior to reading this topic, I've never heard of a shadewing, so you can't really just discredit me for not knowing the existence of a mythical creature I didn't know about prior.

I just like, figured it looked like a thing I saw somewhere else, just like everyone else did in this topic. How on earth that turned into an argument is beyond me. >_>

Ah, I getcha. and hey, I can understand that.

The neck is flexible, but the attachment remains the same. Also, a large percentage of the volume is occupied by muscle, fat, and other soft tissue, and there's also the layer of fur that adds to the silhouette and may be cause for the confusion. Most of the bending and moving occurs in the mid region of the neck, and the skin, fat, etc deform to that movement, so I can definitely see that.

it's similar to how our necks are flexible, but the vertebra linking to the base of our skull doesn't bend at that connection. (from what I can remember)