The VG Resource

I've been thinking about Sonic's appeal versus Mario's appeal and it also made me think a lot about Donkey Kong. As you all know I love DK with a passion, but always questioned why no one else did. Sure people can love the games as, well, games but few people love DK the way they love Sonic or Mario. The only people who do are a small minority on the DKVine. But I think I'm starting to understand why.


Let's look at Mario's design as a character: He's simple, humble, and approachable. Now look at his world: Its very basic, simple, blocky, and to the point.

The design matches the gameplay perfectly. His character and world make sense for the type of game you're playing. And when the gameplay changes (like in Super Mario Sunshine) so does the design of the world. It becomes more realistic and livable looking to compliment the exploration based gameplay.

Now let's look at Sonic: He's sleek, sharp, cool and edgy while still being child friendly. Now look at his world: It's sleek, unruly, and edgy while still being child friendly.

The design matches the gameplay. Unfortunately after the Genesis era Sonic didn't know what it wanted to do but still stayed successful based on the character's personality and look alone. Could Donkey Kong get away with what Sonic has for so many years? Making shit games and yet still making money and having tons of passionate fans? HELL NO!

So now I thought about DK. His character design, his world design, and the mixed messages it might send to audiences. What am I talking about?

Well let's look at DK's design as a character: He's big, heavy, and bulky looking guy while also being kind of silly and goofy. Now his world: It's natural, realistic, and detailed. Wait what? Cartoony ape... realistic world?

Moving on to the gameplay. It's a hop and bop platformer similar to Mario. While it has some exploration elements, at its core its about careful platforming and getting to point A to point B. This doesn't match the character's look nor the look of the world AT ALL!

A big bulky character like DK doesn't suggest a fast paced platformer like DKC. He seems to look like he belongs in a game about cartoony action, maybe a beat-em-up. He looks like he's ready for funny comical scenarios. A natural world like in the DKC series suggests a game around free-roaming exploration, one where you can take your time to enjoy the environment.

Wait a minute? Funny comical scenarios? Free-roaming exploration? Did I just describe DK64?!

Yes I did! And then it hit me! That's why DK64 is such a beloved game while being such a poorly designed one. Donkey Kong belongs to that type of game. Donkey Kong, his cast of characters, his wild world, belongs to a DK64 type of game. Not a Country one.

It's the same reason why Sonic can make such shitty games but still maintain a huge following. He's in games that still match his design. Being unplayable be damned. As long as you're still running loop-dee-loops and blowing up robots, people will still buy it and remember it. And as long as you're climbing trees and shooting crocodiles with fruity guns, people will still fondly remember DK64.

I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy. What do you guys think?

So Sonic Lost World is a bad game because it looks like a Mario game, and not because it's a terrible game.

I'm just messin'. I get what you're goin' at, and it makes me think about how Retro Studios totally revamped the DK style for the Donkey Kong Country Returns series, and for the better, honestly. The cartoony yet detailed environments look like they'll pop out at you and quite often do, whereas the realistic environments of the SNES games were fairly set in stone and non-interactive - much like Mario's backgrounds. Part of that's just because Rare made the original games with pre-rendered graphics though - I can only wonder what they would have done with polygonal graphics for a 2D platformer.

I think Donkey Kong fits pretty well into the worlds of the modern games, though. He's created his own style unique from Mario or Sonic - the very levels themselves collapse and change around you, often because big, hairy wrecking-ball Donkey Kong is barrelling through the levels full-tilt with nary a care for what is behind him. I think that fits him well. But I wouldn't mind seeing another open-world exploration game with Retro at the helm and in the new style.

I don't really care that much for the original DK64 though. Then again I think Rareware, even back during their heyday, are pretty overrated.

/\ this

Like... You may even be right about the 'style clash' of Donkey Kong Country - in fact I read somewhere that Miyamoto said the first installment of DKC was pretty bad game-wise, using the '3D graphics' as gimmick (and I kinda see what he meant with that). At least, the music combined with the realistic graphics, with great ambient/orchestrated music. Fortunately DKC2 and 3 revamped pretty much anything the first game set, but that's not exactly the thread's theme.

I guess that stylistically, DK64 is much more 'DK' than those previous games, and subsequent games have been nailing it - the environments are detailed and cartoony and it's nce to look at (Rare had mastered N64 graphics, making big and pretty levels and characters. Conker is an example of that kind of quality).

But honestly, if I'm concerned, I wouldn't really care about style thaaat much seeing that I hate DK64 and love DKC2. In the end, it's all a matter of taste - and I do like DK, I'm just not crazy about it (actually I'm not crazy about anything... being a diehard fan isn't for me).

Personally, I fucking LOVE the DKC series with all my heart. Donkey Kong Country 2 is probably my favorite SNES game and probably my favorite game of all time. I play it annually and there's really no other platforming experience quite like it. DKC1 is too basic and DKC3 is too much crammed into a single package (also, DK goes to Russia, wtf) I'm really trying not to let my bias get to me here.

(04-13-2015, 05:08 AM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]Yes I did! And then it hit me! That's why DK64 is such a beloved game while being such a poorly designed one. Donkey Kong belongs to that type of game. Donkey Kong, his cast of characters, his wild world, belongs to a DK64 type of game. Not a Country one.

This is probably the most flawed logic I've ever read on the Internet.  Donkey Kong belongs on top of a series of steel bars, tossing barrels at a carpenter. Or being imprisoned while his son braves a now-asshole carpenter to save his dad. Donkey Kong belongs in a game where he drives cars with his former rival, who's since changed his profession to shitty plumbing and has his own agenda (mostly involving fungi). Donkey Kong belongs in sidescrolling games where he fights Kremlings. Or hypnotist things. Or other gorillas. Or Norse animals. He belongs in weird racing games with jet-powered bongos, and he still belongs in a weird platformer that uses the trigger buttons to swing around on pegs.
He also belongs in a 3D world, and he sure as hell belongs in Donkey Konga and DEFINITELY Coconut Crackers. He's OK in any genre he's in.


The problem, unlike Mario platformers is that Donkey Kong is he now constantly serves as an ambassador to Nintendo's riskier ventures with (usually foreign) second-party developers. He's passed around like a crystal coconut from the Saturday morning cartoon, around different yet original intellectual properties containing the character. However, Nintendo's Japanese fanbase feels rather indifferent about DK, as he's too "Western" for Japanese audiences. Most of DK's audience is in the West, because that's where it's developed, produced, aggressively advertised and appreciated.
Most development teams don't have access to the same assets as other developers do, and that's how you end up with all these weird one-off characters, constant wardrobe and character changes.
The franchise is too much of a clusterfuck for "the fanbase" to actually know what they "truly" want as a result. It's like Sonic, except if people actually cared enough about 3D Blast and the unreleased Bejeweled clone to actually give a shit about them. And if the fanbase was actually rational and not creating OCs.

Candy Kong's a fair yardstick to drive the point home, and more recently Tiny Kong. I'm not really sure I have to describe the characters for most of you to get the idea.

tl;dr
Donkey Kong : America
Ninja Turtles : Japan

I think it's worthy to note that in Japan, the popular aesthetic is still the 'kawaii' - that means, cute characters. Donkey Kong simply does not fit in that aesthetic and thus it's not all that popular in Japan, while being generally accepted in western worlds.

This is not bad per se, after all us westerners seem to be more okay with exaggerated casual violence (such as Looney Tunes/Tom & Jerry violence, Billy & Mandy, Mortal Kombat to name a few) while this type of violence isn't seen the same by Japan. Different tastes.

(04-13-2015, 07:17 AM)Gors Wrote: [ -> ]I think it's worthy to note that in Japan, the popular aesthetic is still the 'kawaii' - that means, cute characters. Donkey Kong simply does not fit in that aesthetic and thus it's not all that popular in Japan, while being generally accepted in western worlds.

Thanks Gors. I'm now imagining that 3DS Kyary Pamyu Pamyu ad but with Cranky Kong flying out from the bottom of the screen with an upside down visor and flannel shaking his cane and sreeching out WEE HEE HEE HO HO~~~!! as Kyary flies alongside him



accidental kawaii

that's kodomo manga and it's not exactly cute either

look at his eye shadows, man

What's odd is that Donkey Kong Country animated series was a huge hit in Japan. Also K. Rool is one of the most requested newcomers in Japanese polls. So I can't say DK is unpopular in Japan.

In fact I wouldn't say DK is unpopular anywhere. But what he lacks is a passionate fan base. Look at how much Mario and Sonic are discussed on the internet. Look at how much anticipation people have for each Zelda game. You don't see that for DK and I wonder why.

(04-13-2015, 06:10 PM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]In fact I wouldn't say DK is unpopular anywhere. But what he lacks is a passionate fan base. Look at how much Mario and Sonic are discussed on the internet. Look at how much anticipation people have for each Zelda game. You don't see that for DK and I wonder why.

Because he is a facet of the larger Mario franchise. You're comparing a spin-off to mothership icons. It's kind of like asking "Why doesn't anybody feel strongly about Joey? All anybody ever talks about is Friends."

The irony of it all is that (if you really think about it) the Mario series is technically a spinoff of the original Donkey Kong game.

By the way, Kosheh, I love how you posted that page of the Super Mario Kun manga. Not only am I glad that there are other western fans who know about it, but I'm also wondering if there are story arcs based on the other DKC games. I don't think there are any, but I do know that there is at least one spinoff manga featuring Wario's games. With that said, I would love to see a spinoff (or at least a story arc) of the Super Mario Kun manga that revisits DK's world. I know that there's a Donkey Kong manga (one that is mostly based on the TV show) found in the same manga magazine that publishes Super Mario Kun, but I don't think it's created by the same guy.

ill be honest, im sorta neutral about dkc. its a cool series and all, but its not really unique to me. it feels like any other platformer. hell, if you take out donkey kong related stuff, it can be an original game of its own with pretty much any jungle animal (sorta like doki doki panic = smb USA).

the games are missing a few key elements, such as power-ups and health meter (granted, mario didnt have a health meter, but the power-ups pretty much counted as health anyways). i know some people are passionate for this series, but i can see why people dont give it enough credit. i recently got dkc2 on vc, which is considered to be the best out of the trilogy, and it was just... boring! the only thing that keeps me going is the music in the games, which is really good for snes music.

so to me, i dont think its the looks of the dkc games that throw people off. its the gameplay itself. take it from someone who's sorta been thrown off by it.

(04-13-2015, 06:10 PM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]What's odd is that Donkey Kong Country animated series was a huge hit in Japan. Also K. Rool is one of the most requested newcomers in Japanese polls. So I can't say DK is unpopular in Japan.

In fact I wouldn't say DK is unpopular anywhere. But what he lacks is a passionate fan base. Look at how much Mario and Sonic are discussed on the internet. Look at how much anticipation people have for each Zelda game. You don't see that for DK and I wonder why.

Donkey Kong games are hard. He also doesn't have quite as many as Mario, Sonic, or Zelda.

People expect a brand new Mario or Zelda game with every generation, on every system. Just as well, they're designed with the philosophy that each one is somebody's first - Mario and Zelda games tend to be easy to pick up and play from beginning to end. (With the occasional rare exception, such as Super Mario Galaxy 2 which was explicitly designed to be much more challenging.)

Donkey Kong isn't like that. On the surface, the controls and mechanics are just as simple as any other Mario game, but there's a lot of little nuances (air-roll-jumping and carefully timing button presses to get bounces... and knowing when not to) and the games start ramping up the difficulty pretty fast (Tropical Freeze is very notable in this regard - it kicks off the kid gloves five levels in, not even counting the super-challenging Temple levels).

Which I think is fine. Donkey Kong is the platformer for the experienced player looking for a challenge, compared to Mario which is there for anybody to pop in and have a good time. But of course, that means that Donkey Kong is going to have a smaller fan base since it's not appealing to as wide a demographic.

I don't see Donkey Kong as a facet of Mario. I mean would you consider Batman a facet Superman?

No. Just because the two share the same universe doesn't mean that one has to be looked as a subsidiary of the other. I think that's one of the biggest issues with DK. People can't just be a DK fan, they have to actually be a Mario fan and then appreciate DK by association. And that kind of sucks.

DK is his own beast and shouldn't have to be in Mario's shadow.

Most of what I'm reading in this thread is entirely subjective. Here's my subjective opinions now:

-Not everyone was obsessed with Mario in their youth. Every single Mario game I owned either came with my systems or was given as a gift (in the case of Mario 3, when I was still too young to ask for games). That's all the way up to the N64 era. But the games I kept asking for and DEMANDING I get were Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong Country through Donkey Kong 64 I was BEGGING for these games, because they were amazing to me.

-The background graphics, though grittier, are far from what I would describe as "realistic". The environments have a certain amount of whimsical atmosphere to them, such as the tree houses high up in a jungle or the really beautiful underwater segments. They are meant to be a sort of 3D rendered style, similar to the method they made the sprites for the game. When you look at full renders of the characters and backgrounds BEFORE they were put in the game, they go together a lot more:

If they didn't have them as differentiated as they did in gameplay, though, you'd have trouble discerning characters and enemies from background elements, which is a bad thing in games.

-Though the Hop-and-Bop platformer was more or less a relic of its age, it fits the Donkey Kong series perfectly fine. Apes are faster than you give them credit for, and monkeys are really nimble and agile to begin with.

-Mario will ALWAYS overshadow every other Nintendo franchise. Forever. Mario is probably the most recognizable video game character in the world.

-Donkey Kong is less viable to the average gamer because of its difficulty. Every single Donkey Kong Country game had a steep difficulty curve at one point or another. I spent like 30 lives trying to beat the second boss of Donkey Kong Country 3 because I was too young and stupid to get it through my head that lifting the barrel up under his head with Dixie was a good idea. And yet even after that point, there were segments that were bone-crushingly difficult.

-In regards to Koopaul's final comment about Sonic in his original post, that's not something I agree with. First of all, Sonic BARELY matches the design in his games. They'll have him keep his original design, create regular people with ugly graphics and have Sonic stick out like a sore thumb. Second, he's only still kept going because his fanbase fiercely buys up each iteration regardless of quality, or people will buy him for brand recognition without being smart enough to look up a review for it, followed by his occasional good game to actually justify his existence.

I do have to agree with Koopaul that I really don't see how DKC is a spinoff of Mario, or why people view it that way. Donkey Kong does crossover with Mario often, but the country games are indeed, their own seperate franchise. The other two Mario spinoffs, Wario Land and Yoshi's Island, have borrowed elements and characters from the Mario games, while Donkey Kong more or less is its own self contained universe, not counting the Mario vs DK games.

I also wanted to comment on Recme's post- the Donkey Kong games were designed without Health Meters to keep you immersed in the level. There were no menus obstructing your view of any particular stage, it was designed so you can appreciate the level. Donkey Kong, similarly to Sonic, has a movepool that can dispatch most enemies without the need for Power Ups. Though there are usually barrels, animal buddies, etc littered thoughout a level that assist the player. But DK himself can go though a level speedy and with fluidity, almost comparable to Sonic.

I more or less think Nintendo didn't know what to DO with Donkey Kong in between 1999 when DK64 dropped and 2004 when Namco's Donkey Konga released. They were more or less stuck with this character and this franchise they had no idea what to do with. 5 years is a long time in gaming, and we definitely didn't think a giant doofy gorilla with bongo drums was "cool". Not to mention that Nintendo was already sort of shitting the bed with the Gamecube by that point, and the PS2 was crankin' out amazing titles. 10 years after Donkey Kong was revived as a character, Nintendo had no idea what to do with him! Just stick characters from his world in the Mario Sports Games, that'll work.

Tastes change, and it didn't help that Donkey Kong and his franchise were dormant for so long. But I definitely think there's future in Donkey Kong as a franchise in the future. He definitely does have appeal, I don't think people would've purchased DKC Returns if he wasn't likeable.