The VG Resource

(04-14-2015, 12:03 PM)Ark Kuvis Wrote: [ -> ]I also wanted to comment on Recme's post- the Donkey Kong games were designed without Health Meters to keep you immersed in the level. There were no menus obstructing your view of any particular stage, it was designed so you can appreciate the level.

At this moment I just realized the entire purpose of a tag-partner in the SNES DKC games was to function as the lifebar

Diddy Kong was the lifebar

don't even reason with me that "oh well you see kosheh dixie's attributes are different to diddy and" NO they're the lifebar. it's extremely obvious when you're using roided-up Squawks in DKC2 and your characters immediately because giant dingleberry hitboxes

* Kosheh 's head explodes

(04-14-2015, 04:40 AM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see Donkey Kong as a facet of Mario. I mean would you consider Batman a facet Superman?

This analogy is severely flawed... Mario and Donkey Kong were born in the same title, succeeded together, and have existed together since their very inception. Superman and Batman were created individually. DK and Mario's relationship is way more along the lines of Batman and Catwoman than it is Batman and Superman.

Comic books certainly make it trickier with the Mega Franchise concept, I'll admit. But even taking that into consideration, it would mean that Batman and Superman are facets of the DCU franchise... comparing franchises to comic book universes just doesn't work, which is specifically why I chose Friends despite being way more equipped to talk about comics.

Honestly, look at the facts here. Games DK has starred in without Mario:

Donkey Kong 3
Donkey Kong Jr. Math
Donkey Kong Country
Donkey Kong Country 2
Donkey Kong Country 3
Donkey Kong Land
Donkey Kong Land 2
Donkey Kong Land 3
Diddy Kong Racing
Donkey Kong 64
Donkey Konga
Donkey Konga 2
Donkey Konga 3
Donkey Kong Jungle Beat
Donkey Kong Barrel Blast
Donkey Kong Country Returns
Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze
DK King of Swing
DK Jungle Climber

So even including games where Donkey isn't even playable, we have
Total: 19

Now, games where DK and Mario are eqyally important entities:

Donkey Kong
Donkey Kong Jr.
Donkey Kong '94
Mario vs. Donkey Kong (whole franchise, five games)

Total is eight. Looks good for DK's own identity so far... but...

Games where DK and his crew are supporting characters to the rest of the Mario cast:

Super Mario Kart (11 games)
Mario's Tennis (five games)
Mario Golf (4 games)
Mario Party (10 games)
Mario Hoops 3-on-3
Mario Sports Mix
Super Mario Strikers (Two games)
Mario Superstar Baseball (Two games)
Game & Watch Gallery (franchise is four games. Even more fun because it's Mr. G&W only non-Smash appearance)

That's forty... and I got bored...

The games where DK appears with Mario out number DK's own games by at least thirty, again even counting games where DK is not even playable. For about a decade the two only showed up together, with the exception of DK's two tail-end arcade games. Donkey Kong's solo outings barely outnumber Yoshi's or Wario's, and being totally honest, the Kongs are the only spinoff franchise to seriously influence Mario's side games (although at this point the majority of Mario's games are side games). Kamek hasn't been playable, I don't think any of Wario's posse has played even supporting roles in Mario Party/Kart/Sports... but Donkey, Diddy, Dixie, Tiny, K. Rool, Kremlings, and Funky have all made a place among the greater Mario cast.

The two characters are too intimately linked to ever claim they are distinct properties with a straight face.

Edit: Look at these photos


Do you see the common element? Even most of the Donkey Kong merchandise is labelled "Super Mario". Nintendo clearly thinks of them as the same property.

(04-14-2015, 12:03 PM)Ark Kuvis Wrote: [ -> ]I also wanted to comment on Recme's post- the Donkey Kong games were designed without Health Meters to keep you immersed in the level. There were no menus obstructing your view of any particular stage, it was designed so you can appreciate the level. Donkey Kong, similarly to Sonic, has a movepool that can dispatch most enemies without the need for Power Ups. Though there are usually barrels, animal buddies, etc littered thoughout a level that assist the player. But DK himself can go though a level speedy and with fluidity, almost comparable to Sonic.

the funny thing is, dkc returns includes health meters and power-ups. sure, it did take away some of the background, but im sure they could've implemented it in another way other than it being a hud.

i guess animal buddies can count as power-ups but the only one that i could see that adds abilities to your character is the spider one. rambi is just a faster dk while the water...shark thing (dunno its name) just lets you swim faster and attack underwater.

also, i fail to see a reason of why it matters whether dk is as fast as sonic or not. sonics main point is to go fast, while dk is just platforming. granted, you can go either way with both of them; the thing is, speed is sonic's priority, not dk's.

(04-14-2015, 04:16 PM)recme Wrote: [ -> ]while the water...shark thing (dunno its name)

Enguarde the Swordfish?

(there's also Rattler the Snake and Winky the Frog, both of whom enhance your jumping to super proportions, Squawks, who can fly and shoot eggs depending on color [I think the purple one is technically not Squawks... Quawks, I think...], Ellie the Elephant who can suck up water to shoot or pull in barrels from a limited distance... a few others)

Rambi and Enguarde both enhance the Kongs' offensive capabilities as well.

I wouldn't count them as power-ups, though... I mean, unless we're considering SMW Yoshi a power-up.

Animal buddies are most certainly able to be considered power ups.

Koopaul I like you. Not because I like Koopa's and Koops is my favorite Koopa of all time. It's not because I've known how swell a person you've been (because I don't think we've ever talked.) No, see I respect you because despite the lack thereof of clamor for the ig ape you're a 100% debonaire fan. A true Kong Aficionado.


That said. To answer you threads titular question. Nothing is wrong with the way Donkey Kong looks. There's just nothing to draw from him as a character, so I'm not intrigued. He lives on his island, that's his home some crocodiles feel they can treat Peaceful Powerful primeapes anyway they want so they steal Banana's then they Steal the hero? I dunno. Maybe the fact it feels like people are interesting in DK like they are in Sonic and Mario is that DK always seems to be playing a background character. He's always there but overshadowed. DK has his moments but sometimes not even in his own games. Like he goes back to being an Antagonist in the Mario mini Series (Though I know that's apparently mischievous than anything malicious.)


DK is like... your cool uncle Raz who dropped out of school became a mechanic got picked up by a dealer ship and now fixes cars and runs a garage on the side, he makes his own money can take vacation as often as he wants, and is genuinly happy to show you cool stuff and teach you things but he's not like your Big brother Sonic who just defeated the evil Water Demon God, or Cousin Mario who's always dropping by,in being the life of the party sometimes uncle DK is with him! but uncle DK always seems to leave first. Though he has a lasting impression he only seems to be center stage when he's at his shops or job or when he's stirring up trouble of his own. He was neat when you were a kid and you'll always remember him as the rad uncle he was and is. DK is just like that. to a lot of people I think. Always present, never irrelevant but not always needed. I hope that made sense.

(04-14-2015, 04:35 PM)Kriven Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-14-2015, 04:16 PM)recme Wrote: [ -> ]while the water...shark thing (dunno its name)

I wouldn't count them as power-ups, though... I mean, unless we're considering SMW Yoshi a power-up.

power-ups are generally extensions to a characters abilities, so enguarde and yoshi would count as power-ups, since they give you extra abilities. i dont know much about the other animal buddies since i haven't really gotten that far in dkc2, but from the way you described them, they sound interesting.

how does rambi increase offensive capabilities...? he can jump and attack just like the rest of the kongs. the only difference is that he is faster and has a little bit of trouble jumping.

Well, besides the variations of his horn attack (standard, auto attack, and charge), Rambi is able to stomp on enemies the other Kongs have trouble doing themselves, such as Zingers.

Rambi cannot be damaged from the front and will instantly kill whoever he charges into without button input.

Another reason why Donkey Kong probably isn't as well loved and clamored for is because the Country games sort of backshafted Donkey Kong himself. Country 2 had Diddy as the main protagonist, and Dixie was the protagonist in Country 3. Meanwhile, DK's popping up in all kinds of Mario spinoffs like Kart, Party, Golf, etc. Donkey Kong wasn't playable in his own series of games until 1999, when DK64 dropped. That's five years.

Mario and Sonic were always the primary main character of all of their games, but DK never really got to STICK as a protagonist. He, like Wario, was solidified into the minds of many as a side character in the Mario games.

I think if Rare stayed with Nintendo and developed Donkey Kong Racing and Diddy Kong Pilot as intended, I don't think we'd be having this issue. Donkey Kong would never be HUGE ala Mario and Sonic, but he'd still be relevant and brought into all kinds of new games. But, because of the buyout, we had to watch Nintendo desperately try their hand at making DK cool, all while injecting DK and his world into the Mario spinoff games. Which, isn't bad mind you. But it is sort of the reason DK's identity is so heavily tied to the Mario franchise.

Returns and Tropical Freeze were masterly handed by Retro Studios, bringing back everything we loved about the original Donkey Kong Country to a new generation. Buuuuuut, I can see a lot of gamers overlooking them if they HAVEN'T played a Donkey Kong Country game or if they dismiss them as a simple side scrolling platformer. I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty sure to the normal gamer, Side Scrolling Platformers are "indie shit". Doesn't help that Tropical Freeze dropped on a system that really had nothing going for it at the time besides, well, a sweet Mario platformer. But why would you buy a system for TWO platformers??? you'd have to be insane or like, a Nintendo fanboy to pick one of those up.

*dusts off my "I bought a WiiU at launch" badge*

Oh yeah I don't think Donkey Kong could ever be as big as Mario and that's not what I'm after. I just want people to see him as his own man and not some Mario side-character. And certainly not cool Uncle Raz.

(04-15-2015, 12:17 AM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]Oh yeah I don't think Donkey Kong could ever be as big as Mario and that's not what I'm after. I just want people to see him as his own man and not some Mario side-character.

Can't he be both? They're in the same universe, there's no way to completely separate the two and in the cross-over titles, Mario's the one who's going to sell the title, not Donkey Kong.

He gets to be his own character in the Donkey Kong Country games where Mario is only ever vaguely referred to. When him and Mario butt heads though, Mario's gonna be the protagonist. When they play sports together, Mario's gonna be the title character.

Honestly, I've been wanting a game where Mario and Donkey Kong are allies... gameplay some kind of hybrid of DKC and SMB.

Yeah I'd like a crossover game where each of them get equal billing. Sort of like a Batman and Superman crossover. Sorry I keep using that comparison...

(04-14-2015, 07:17 PM)Omegajak Wrote: [ -> ]That said. To answer you threads titular question. Nothing is wrong with the way Donkey Kong looks. There's just nothing to draw from him as a character, so I'm not intrigued. He lives on his island, that's his home some crocodiles feel they can treat Peaceful Powerful primeapes anyway they want so they steal Banana's then they Steal the hero? I dunno. Maybe the fact it feels like people are interesting in DK like they are in Sonic and Mario is that DK always seems to be playing a background character. He's always there but overshadowed. DK has his moments but sometimes not even in his own games. Like he goes back to being an Antagonist in the Mario mini Series (Though I know that's apparently mischievous than anything malicious.)

I'd have to disagree on both that there's nothing wrong with how DK looks, and that theres nothing to draw from his character.

Unlike Mario and Sonic (if we still want to use them as the standard), it seems like Donkey Kong's design has had less of a natural evolution between games and instead has just had a verity of clumsy renditions as dev teams try to figure out what exactly the best way to make him iconic would be.  You could say a lot of the dk's have their own appeals, but other than maybe the pixelated original donkey kong and the rare dk, you can't really break him down into eras like sonic and he hasn't really been tweaked to a level that everyone seems to enjoy like mario.  (An example  of that tweaking being like his recent appearance in tropical freeze's promotional art were donkey kong proportions and fur texture and even some of his expressions look off model to the donkey kongs's we've seen before.) I'd say that this aspect of him is really apparent in games like smash bros were other teams can't figure out the best way to represent him either.  Donkey Kong isn't as abstracted as his contemporaries, which isn't bad, but has some expected complications.

But in terms of what we can draw from his character I'd say that there's a plethora especially in comparison to early mario and sonic. My personal frame of reference stems from my favorite game in the series the original donkey kong county.  To appreciate the personality of Donkey Kong you really have to consider the world that he was placed in, in his definitive reimagining.  The world of dkc is one that's inseparable from the form of media it takes place in and from the context of the series as a reimagining of an existing ip.  As we can see by his silly 90's antics, blasting his boombox with his candy kong poster, and by his sloppy house his including quirky table cloth complete with a flower and vase, Dk is pretty clearly painted to be a relaxed and simple guy.  In a nice instance of game convention and story telling synergy, Dk is firmly established as a protagonist character being expected to fill the roll by cranky kong (who in himself acts as a exaggerated commentary of the game in himself), and by his own simpleton and innocent goal of recalling his banana hoard (which is very much a product of typical video game convention).  
It's actually pretty humorous that in the face of lizard imperialism, he's drawn to action by missing bananas, and that humor isn't lost on the part of the developers as donkey kongs special animations and skits all involve humor, and of course just the design of the character is very humorous well.  I'm not saying anything surprising or ground breaking but just that all of those aspects are addressed makes him feel like a very realized character, and its not  hard to imagine how he'd feel in most situations (not to mention the music that characterizes how the character would feel so well in each environment) 
((Normally I'd be skeptical to the idea of having such a simplistic character, but what really sells me personally is both the history of the intellectual property, and the journey and gameplay itself which treats dk as such a simple guy with only a few tools going so far with so little in an ambiant world))


Oh yeah to address that title question myself, I'd say that the DKC series visual design compliments the mechanics very well in terms of complexity.
I mentioned before that "the world of dkc is one that's inseparable from the form of media it takes place in", and that is shown a lot aesthetically. The typical jungle theme is pretty dramatically changed by the industrial elements that carry over from the original ip (an entirely industrial game), and some of those things like the tires, barrels and crates, and armored enemies work towards making the gameplay itself deeper than some other platformers. The core mechanics also have a sense of complexity as already stated in this thread, with advanced techniques and technical playing being crucial, which is complemented by the characters natural animation with draws a lot from the rhythmic swinging and moving of apes.  (If I recall correctly rare actually looked at real apes to base donkey kong's movements on, with loyalties taken of course to make the cartoony character work.)  In terms of making a unified experience, the tightness of the mechanics and how they are visually represented contextually really wroks.

Anyways those are some of the elements that have made an impression on me in regards to an ip that I otherwise wouldn't care about. 
The mechanics are beautiful as a speed game and just in terms of mastery and fun in general, and the world feels much deeper than you'd ever really think something so superficially shallow could ever seem.
I'd say it was a more fun game than sonic and tails or smb3 even, but I don't think the fallowing games in the series ever really fully realized what made the first so special.  I'd say part of why Donkey Kong lost relevance is due to how convoluted the later games got and losing a lot of the familiarities that the first game had so quickly instilled in people.  Nintendo doesn't really seem to understand the character that Rare reimagined Donkey Kong to be, as simple as it might seem, as they choose to hardily give him motivation at all while homogenizing him in there special Nintendo way and giving him the worst voice ever.