The VG Resource

About time you got here, Tyvon. Your opinion on the matter would have really helped the argument move and not become an internet stalemate.
How would you incorporate SFA3 V-ISM into a game like this, Tyvon? :V
[Too many people, including Runouw, want to include it though, but it can't just be thrown in as-is, it needs to be retooled...
but it somehow became an argument?]

now if you don't mind, i'm seeking some closure here, thanks

(12-08-2010, 06:58 PM)Negative-Zer0 Wrote: [ -> ]Tuna, MY idea was to incorporate this from a fighter into smash, while making it it's own thing. Not morphing it straight up into a fighter. Do you know how much complaining there would be in this forum if the gauge was Incorporated?

We get it - actually, I know exactly what you mean. But "incorporating" doesn't always mean lifting one idea and dropping it into another untouched. Sometimes "conversion" is needed: You have to adapt that part you want to incorporate into the whole in order to make it work.
As-is, there's a few flaws to it: Setting it to a definite time limit means that beginner players get screwed, combo masters own.
However, once we implement the alternate-final-combo we'll all be beginners at it since the combo system itself completely turns the game mechanics on its head for ten seconds, literally chucking an extra level of depth within what most players consider an already complex metagame.
You're putting a metagame within the metagame. A meta-metagame. And by setting a time limit, that's pretty much forcing a sink-or-swim.
Most people are going to become frustrated with trying to learn the mechanics of it to apply to their favorite character while a select few are going to obsess over it and live out your dream of people becoming pro at it.
That shouldn't happen.

It has to be adapted into a brawler-friendly format first before you just toss it in there. :/

(12-08-2010, 06:58 PM)Negative-Zer0 Wrote: [ -> ]EDIT2: Koseh's idea in the own zone was to combo within a restricted area, which is a limit. The only limits that I personally think works best is the time limit.

If you thought about it (or if I made myself clearer), the OWN ZONE covers a very large area upon activation, and be serious - it's not like you're going to combo someone across the entirety of [Melee] Hyrule Castle. But - OWN ZONE right, as I was saying - if you think about it, the OWN ZONE is actually a V-ISM/P-Groove gauge in disguise that also correlates with the skill of the player who initiates it. MEANING: Beginner players would have a little more leeway with combo time while expert comboers can squeeze out a flashy combo within a reasonable limit - because going anything beyond what's needed is....well, unnecessary.
That way, you're not scaring the player away when they initiate their first Final Combo Smash. You're pretty much allowing them either to be satisfied with their results or upon learning how the OWN ZONE works, get interested in making the most out of it. It's like, a really really fast version of training wheels that catches on quickly!

As for fleshing it out a bit, perhaps the OWN ZONE upon initiated can start where the player is initially standing, so the player can determine where they'd like the combo to start. Then, once the combo gets rolling the OWN ZONE begins to shrink. Get the idea?
By the time the OWN ZONE passes you the opponent won't be knocked back at the end, you'll be doing the last move of the combo anyway, and you'll KO the opponent, completing your original intention in the first place.

The idea of making it a separate item is to prevent confusion in both execution and purpose of the Smash Ball. Plus, if people don't want to use the Final Combo Smash, they can turn it off 1) without turning off items, and 2) not worry about accidentally initiating the combo when they want to do a Final Smash. You might not do it yourself - but trust me, weird things happen like that. :I

Also you suggested startup animations or something
I totally mentioned that in the spoiler tag of my last post... >>

Then again Koseh, people would complain about the own zone, and prompt for a time limit. I'm not talking about people in this forum, I am talking about those other people on other sites who randomly stumble upon this game.

Why? Becuase naturally, people get angry, and people like to complain. If they lose based upon someone who is using the ownzone, they are goid to scream too high heaven and force us to implement a time limit or remove it completely. Or complain about how they want thier Awshum combos to not be tied down to a single area, get what i mean.

I dunno, it sounds good yet i still got that feeling, you know.

I don't see a single problem with making the "V-Ism" part of the Smash Ball. I think you should be allowed to have the option to use one or the other, or a combination of both in a way. You have to be filled up at least 50% to use the Final Smash, and 100% allows you to use the custom combo. When you pick up the Smash Ball, it fills you up 50%. When you take damage, the gauge slightly increases with the amount of damage you take. If you die, the gauge resets to 0.

When you activate the "Smash Combo" the gauge drains. If the gauge is still at 50% or higher during the combo, you can cancel your actions into a Final Smash-- but this drains your gauge to 0 immediately.

After using the Smash Combo or the Final Smash, your gauge is locked for 30 seconds. Even if you collect the Smash Ball during this time, your gauge won't increase. This can add a lot more pace to the fight, because if you're still in "recharge mode" and you pick up a Smash Ball, nothing happens except the ball is gone-- which allows you to deny somebody the energy charge. Of course, this can cause a flaw in the game where it literally becomes all about the Smash Ball.

When the Smash Combo is active, you can cancel moves into other moves, but in order for the cancel to work, your move must hit. The Smash Gauge drains automatically when the Smash Combo is active. Normal moves drain it faster, and special moves drain it even faster. This encourages you to actually know your moves are going to hit, rather than just button-mashing-- adding a bit more depth to the game. The character's movement speed should not increase-- only their attack speed. With the Smash Combo active, your moves lose all knockback in order for the combo to be effective-- but this means that the Smash Combo alone cannot knock an enemy off the stage. When the Smash Combo becomes inactive, the player that activated it will be left alone for a short period of time, allowing the opponent to counter attack.

Final Smashes will be weaker at 50% energy, and stronger at 100%. If you are using your Smash Combo to segue into your Final Smash, the Final Smash that comes out will be slightly weaker in power and knockback than the 50% energy FS. This will still usually be enough to kill the opponent, provided you used your Smash Combo effectively, but if you fail to use the Smash Combo properly and use the FS in desperation, it has a high chance to not be very effective-- especially for the characters with the weaker FSs.

And of course, you can opt to turn off the Smash Gauge but keep Final Smashes (classic Brawl), or just get rid of the Gauge and Smash Ball completely (classic Melee).

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(12-08-2010, 10:43 PM)Negative-Zer0 Wrote: [ -> ]Why? Becuase naturally, people get angry, and people like to complain. If they lose based upon someone who is using the ownzone, they are goid to scream too high heaven and force us to implement a time limit or remove it completely. Or complain about how they want thier Awshum combos to not be tied down to a single area, get what i mean.

This is 80% of gamers.

(12-08-2010, 10:43 PM)Negative-Zer0 Wrote: [ -> ]Then again Koseh, people would complain about the own zone, and prompt for a time limit. I'm not talking about people in this forum, I am talking about those other people on other sites who randomly stumble upon this game.

Why? Becuase naturally, people get angry, and people like to complain. If they lose based upon someone who is using the ownzone, they are goid to scream too high heaven and force us to implement a time limit or remove it completely. Or complain about how they want thier Awshum combos to not be tied down to a single area, get what i mean.

I dunno, it sounds good yet i still got that feeling, you know.

that's "doubt" and that feeling's normal with new ideas

lol and those people probably don't even play with items anyway
OWN ZONE's large circle is just one really big time limit that scales with skill; and most combos won't go that far anyway. If it helps, I kind of imagined the OWN ZONE's initial radius to be really big anyway...maybe like, Final Destination big.
If you can combo someone across Final Destination, you can initiate it at the right side of Final Destination, start the combo and combo your opponent off the side of Final Destination anyway

Keep in mind they're going to ban the item if they don't want it anyway

One issue about the Final Combo Smash is that with Final Smashes, opponents can tech out of those or dodge the attack completely with good timing. The Final Combo Smash is completely dependent on hitting the opponent. I was thinking if the opponent was stunned that the player has time to start their combo, but then the opponent would tech out of it.
If the opponent can't tech out of it, then it becomes a little too overpowered, and the size of the OWN ZONE/time limit of the technique has to be reduced...but that kills the point of the mechanic.

For this to work we can't only consider the player conditions but also the opponent conditions.

With the OWN ZONE though, it kind of gives opportunity to a cool mechanic: If the Final Combo Smash is initiated, we could do something where the likeliness of the opponent being caught up in it depending on their distance from the player. That'd be kind of cool - like a "point of no return" where if the opponent is stuck in this small range within the initial OWN ZONE spawn point they're stunned, otherwise their reaction time is halved or quartered (like the stopwatch item)

EDIT: oops posted after tyvon posted.
it sounds kinda neat but i'm tired so it doesn't make sense
I like it, it's very V-ISM, the only thing is the custom combo -> weak FS seems a little...silly, because who says you can't use the Smash Combo to automatically trap the opponent in your Final Smash? That makes Meta Knight and others with proximity-based Final Smashes...awesome :0!

We'll see when Runouw implements the ideas. I don't really see any sort of major flaw in my idea that hasn't been mentioned already, and you never know until you've actually tried it.

We'll see. Th only thing that truly needs to be discussed is how it works.

The scaling
Damage
KNockback and such.

I already covered that.

We haven't solved the most important problem of all:
What are we going to call the Combo and/or Item?

(12-09-2010, 01:44 AM)Dils Wrote: [ -> ]We haven't solved the most important problem of all:
What are we going to call the Combo and/or Item?

WTF, that doesn't matter right now. We don't even have the name of the game.

personally, i think we should keep it as simple as possible. an item seems like the best option to me but you guys seem to be leaning towards supers

(12-09-2010, 07:24 AM)Negative-Zer0 Wrote: [ -> ]WTF, that doesn't matter right now. We don't even have the name of the game.

I was being ironic.
We should really make a poll about this. We can add the highest rated idea to the next demo and if there's complaints/complications we can always change it later.

(12-09-2010, 09:57 AM)Dils Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-09-2010, 07:24 AM)Negative-Zer0 Wrote: [ -> ]WTF, that doesn't matter right now. We don't even have the name of the game.

I was being ironic.
We should really make a poll about this. We can add the highest rated idea to the next demo and if there's complaints/complications we can always change it later.

Game development isn't always what people want, as ironic as that might seem. People don't know what they want sometimes. We wont know which one truly works better until we test it in the demo, so to speak.
I gotta a good hunch about mine though




Check out gooeys topic for my write-up on him. It's a good read.

People were getting along a lot better until someone introduced the idea of combos.

Ah, Koopaul, f you haven't realized by now, great debates always took place in this section. Besides, thats game development. Agreements and disagreements happen. All in all, it helps move production forward.

There is little to no work being done. This would at least spark up this section a bit.

(12-09-2010, 04:01 PM)Negative-Zer0 Wrote: [ -> ]We wont know which one truly works better until we test it in the demo, so to speak.

Then which idea's going to get tested first?