They "deal with it and move on." Ok. Cecil deals with the fact that he was a dark knight and moves on. Terra and Celes deal with the fact that they were used by the Empire and they move on. Cyan deals with the deaths of his family and moves on. Locke realizes Rachel's death is not his fault and moves on. Squall deals with abandonment and moves on (eventually). Zidane and Vivi realize they were created to be tools of war and they move on. There is literally nothing revolutionary about FF7's characters "dealing and moving on." It's character growth and it happens in every RPG ever. But you know what else happens in every RPG ever? Plots of convenience.
I can admit that Yang's "death" is a cop-out, but that doesn't mean that Cait Sith's isn't. Yes, FF4's plot can get superficial, mostly due to the limitations of the time. They needed reasons to get rid of some characters so that others could come in. It's messy, but necessary. It's, as was said before, prototypical. FF7 does exactly the same thing with the Cait Sith scenario, but there is no reason for it, both plotwise and technically. The buildup to Cait Sith's death is complete crap. It's tossed in for no reason. Cait Sith's sacrifice is a ploy for the characters (and player) to get over his spy status more quickly and nothing more, just like Yang's death is a ploy to free up a space in your party. They're both lazy writing, but only one can claim to be the product of technical limitation. If the temple hadn't imploded the plot wouldn't have changed at all. They would have walked out with the Materia and said "ok, what next?" and Cait Sith would have still been taking up a spot in your party. I'm perfectly willing to admit that FF4 could have been handled better (even FF6 handled its plot better just a couple years later), had the game come out ten years later.

there is a difference between a matter of individual growth and the theme of a work as a whole.

the temple imploding was "necessary" for embellishing the point that the materia was incredibly dangerous and they legitimately tried to prevent people from getting ahold of it; they wanted to associate it with great sacrifice and they wanted to punish those who were vain enough to want to acquire it for personal gain. it was as much a statement about human nature and the theme of the game as it was a "plot device" or trap. it was only circumvented because of cait siths sacrifice, and because of the foolish actions of cloud and his group.

cait sith sacrificing himself was about redeeming and establishing cait siths character as - plot-wise, anyway - a little bit more than just an obnoxious stuffed puppet. the ramifications of the event are revisited later on in the game. it actually has ramifications.

its not a matter of "convenience" because it has no technical or superficial ulterior motive: yangs absence was desired for additional characters, but cait sith does not become absent, and the events that came about through it occur not because "thats the way its supposed to be": none of it was forced. the temple didn't have to be the materia in order for the game to progress. the temple was the materia, and cait sith sacrificed himself, because it deals with the themes of the game on both an individual and long-term level.


no; the event is not the peak of artistic writing or meaning or anything of the sort. but to say it is "basically the same" as what happened with yang, or with numerous other characters in FF4, is incredibly disingenuous.

A very powerful boss could have done the same. The Demon Wall in FF4 did this to protect the crystal. Sorry to go back to FF4, but that's the example I thought of. I'm not saying either one is better, but they serve the same purpose. A powerful guardian does the same trick as the trap. They both punish for personal gain. The temple, admittedly, is much more clever.
Sure, it redeems him, but the whole scenario is constructed just as an easy out so you can trust him for an act that is rendered completely null by the fact that he can replicate as often as he needs to. And I must be rusty. What are the ramifications later? Does it have to do with Reeve being jailed? Reeve is a whole 'nother complaint on my part, honestly, and I'd rather not get into it.
Yeah, I forgot about the temple-being-the-materia thing. But is it more meaningful that Yang fully intended to die to save the dwarves, or that Cait Sith didn't really give anything up by being killed in the temple because he could come right back?
the whole scenario, though, still seems like an easy way to trust Cait Sith. To me, it would have been better for him to actually work toward redemption rather than perform a sacrifice that was ultimately meaningless in order to gain false sympathies.

(07-28-2010, 02:57 PM)JarJar Wrote: Oh those were remakes of of a game from 1988, so it was most likely gonna have everything look decent except the story and gameplay. However I heard the 2005 games and later are what got some extremely good reception.

Actually the graphics were pretty bad too. Amateurish 3D environaments, a lot of brown and grey.

No matter, I'm still more entranced with modern-setting RPGs. The World Ends With You was such a burst of fresh air. I'd pray for a sequel, but then the magic might stagnate. Sigh.

(07-28-2010, 07:01 PM)GrooveMan.exe Wrote:

(07-28-2010, 02:57 PM)JarJar Wrote: Oh those were remakes of of a game from 1988, so it was most likely gonna have everything look decent except the story and gameplay. However I heard the 2005 games and later are what got some extremely good reception.

Actually the graphics were pretty bad too. Amateurish 3D environaments, a lot of brown and grey.

No matter, I'm still more entranced with modern-setting RPGs. The World Ends With You was such a burst of fresh air. I'd pray for a sequel, but then the magic might stagnate. Sigh.

This is problem with people and creativity. You try to keep going hoping people like it only to find they only like trying new things once, after that it's "old" and "shitty".

Besides aren't Earthbound games suppose to have real world settings minus the fantasy that ensues (Gigas, Ness's mind) since it's an RPG? or did you mean that the re-entrance into games that hold some similarity to the real world and coming back to that after Mother 3 was a breath of the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air?

(07-28-2010, 02:03 PM)JarJar Wrote: Anyone familiar with the Ys series? I heard it was really good but idk anything about it but Ys Seven is coming out in 3 weeks and the game looks amazing and I want it.

While admittedly many of the games in the series aren't incredible, I happen to love the series a lot. The series started to do really well with the 3D gameplay introduced in Ark of Naphistim (Ys 6), and then they remade Ys 3 in 3D, which allegedly rocked pretty hard, and then an Ys Origin game, which featured an AWWWWWWESOME final boss fight. I so wish I could play that game..

(07-28-2010, 02:03 PM)JarJar Wrote: Anyone familiar with the Ys series? I heard it was really good but idk anything about it but Ys Seven is coming out in 3 weeks and the game looks amazing and I want it.

grooveman is a retard, Ys is an amazing series

I have no idea how to pronounce that word.

(07-29-2010, 02:02 AM)Ash Crimson Prettiest Princess Wrote:

(07-28-2010, 02:03 PM)JarJar Wrote: Anyone familiar with the Ys series? I heard it was really good but idk anything about it but Ys Seven is coming out in 3 weeks and the game looks amazing and I want it.

grooveman is a retard, Ys is an amazing series

Whatever; The Ys games I played were incredibly bare bones. I've played some of Ys 3 as well; and it was significantly superior to its predecessors, but I felt nothing but its age. If the modern Ys games are as good as what's been claimed, then I'm not going to make any attempt to refute that.

(07-29-2010, 12:35 AM)Djanjo Wrote: This is problem with people and creativity. You try to keep going hoping people like it only to find they only like trying new things once, after that it's "old" and "shitty".

Besides aren't Earthbound games suppose to have real world settings minus the fantasy that ensues (Gigas, Ness's mind) since it's an RPG? or did you mean that the re-entrance into games that hold some similarity to the real world and coming back to that after Mother 3 was a breath of the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air?

Ehhhh, not so much that as I would LOVE a sequel to TWEWY set somewhere else with new clothes and a new Weapon system; but I don't trust the story or the characters to be as good. The message the first game gave was the lynchpin to having the entire game work; but we don't need to be told that message again in a sequel.

I suppose I just want Jupiter to champion another Squeenix RPG. Between this and Chain of Memories; they do very good work. I don't think they were involved in 358/2 Days, though.

I loved Earthbound's setting (as I said before), but the mechanics are dull. Mother 3 was pretty much better in every way; but didn't have the City-hopping aspect I liked about EB.

(07-28-2010, 02:57 PM)JarJar Wrote: Oh those were remakes of of a game from 1988, so it was most likely gonna have everything look decent except the story and gameplay. However I heard the 2005 games and later are what got some extremely good reception.

the turbografx ones were p great.

Ys is pronounced EES


also 3 is probably the worst in the series, you aint got no taste hombre.

I haven't played a lot of SNES RPGs, but I definitely preferred Chrono Trigger to Earthbound. Unfortunately I never beat CT, but I did get close.

Some of my other favorites are Terranigma, Illusion of Gaia, Langrisser 1 & 2, Dark Savior and the Shining Force games. Dark Savior wasn't the best in terms of graphics and the controls were a bit weird, but I loved the story line. It's probably my overall favorite.

godd i love terranigma, it kind of drags in the middle but it's epic.

You know what needs to happen? Saga 2 for DS needs to English, and Bandai Namco needs to do some fucking research. I remember when there were these 2 minute segments on my local cartoon channels that were slotted for letting people know about new games if you weren't into the whole looking on the net thing at the time. It was during 2004-2006, When Wild Arms 3, Prince of Persia, and Tales of Symphonia came out. I only knew and cared about those games at the time because of the commercials.

Honestly where have video game commercials gone? I don't have Tech TV or G4 so I'm not in the know. Do they even have video game commercials that aren't Street Fighter 4 and Sony's Kevin Butler? I watch too little T.V the only thin that comes to mind is HALO ODST commercials.

Point: Bandai Namco tell people about your fucking games not every goes to RPG Fan or RPGamer to get news. Invest a little money and you will see return just like on Symphonia.

We need a 3D FF6 remake like they did with FF3 and 4, but with more realistic graphics. Basically the same type of jump as they did before with moving the battle sprites to the overworld for more detail, except they should get rid of the chibi art style.