There's been some healthy debate about Super Guides over in the Zelda: OoT Comparison thread, but I figured it should continue in it's own thread. Super Guides were first started with New Super Mario Bros. Wii where you had to die 8 straight times in a level to trigger the Super Guide block where you could have Luigi play through the level partially or fully.

There was a catch to the Super Guide system in NSMB Wii. Using it means you could no longer get sparkling stars on your file and stages beaten with the Super Guide don't turn to blue on the map. Some expressed outright worry or dislike of this Super Guide saying games will be made easy or developers will get lazy in making the games. Uh, it's only been mostly used by Nintendo (and Retro for DKC Returns), but other developers have used tricks to assist the less experienced (some FPSs lately have auto-regenerating health).

Nintendo didn't make NSMB Wii easy. Hell no. I died pretty regularly in the later worlds, but not to the degree to trigger the Super Guide even in the brutal World 9-7. That speaks more to my platforming skill than anything Nintendo did, because Miyamoto prides himself on effective game design. He knew the backlash from the original NSMB for DS being too easy (namely fighting bosses), but was worried about alienating new and casual players with the next game. He built the Super Guide as a result for NSMB Wii so that he could make NSMB Wii more difficult for veterans.

In fact this Super Guide mentality was kept for Nintendo's other games that used the Super Guide. In Super Mario Galaxy 2, the game is challenging and if you'd like to use the Super Guide to clear the level, the penalty you'd pay is Bronze Stars instead of Gold ones. Then DKCR came and it's the hardest Donkey Kong Country game to date. If you used the Super Guide here, you couldn't keep any collectibles that were gotten during the Super Guide's run. You need the KONG letters, clear bonus rooms, and such to increase your percentage on your file.

I had to use the Super Guide for one level in World 8 of DKCR, that Rocketbarrel stage where you had to be pixel perfect in a sea of fire snakes and other hazards. I couldn't do it, so I used Super Guide to skip it. I paid the penalty though as I couldn't keep anything the Super Guide got during the run. Thusly my percentage on my file didn't increase. I'll have to go back and legitly beat the level to increase the percentage especially if I want to access the last world. To me I'm glad the Super Guide is available if there's a need for it. I could use it to get hints or if a level is really bad, bypass it all together. In fact, Nintendo has always had the mentality to help those inexperienced or frustrated.

Remember Super Mario Bros. 3? There were P-Wings and Lakitu Clouds available that you could use to skip vast levels. And that was way back in the early 90's. I have no problems if the Super Guide creeped into more games especially if it results in more difficult games.

i don't really care about the super guide's implementation in games like DKCR since it only triggers if you're losing a totally ridiculous amount and doesn't get in your way

it bothers me how oot3d apparently bugs you constantly to look at hint movies because its annoying, pointless (assuming the option is already in the menu, which it should be), and kind of takes you out of the feel of the game, instead reminding you that yes this is just a game (this is less important than it being annoying and pointless, however). overall though this is really not going to affect the game in any severely negative way

if super guides continue to be implemented the same way they are right now, i don't think it'll be a big deal; but if they start becoming more common and more in your face (which is possible but not happening now), then we could see some problems down the road, but that doesnt apply now and will more than likely not apply in the future (but you never know)

I didn't really keep up with the OoT thread since I'm not a huge Zelda fan, (The games are good and everything but they just don't tend to hold my interest very long.) so I don't really know how the Super Guide debate went down, but honestly I don't really see a problem with them being in certain games, just as long as it's voluntary and isn't just a free pass through the entire game.

I've never used the Super Guide in NSMBWii or anything, but my sister has, and I know it's helped her enjoy the game more than she would have if she were never able to progress past a stage that was troubling her, and I think that the most important thing about a game that it's enjoyable.

This post doesn't really have a lot to it, admittedly, but I guess later on once there are some more posts I can chime in again.

(06-09-2011, 07:01 PM)Ngamer01 Wrote: Remember Super Mario Bros. 3? There were P-Wings and Lakitu Clouds available that you could use to skip vast levels. And that was way back in the early 90's. I have no problems if the Super Guide creeped into more games especially if it results in more difficult games.

this isn't a very fair comparison, as P-Wings / Lakitu Clouds were uncommon progress rewards, not pity items thrown at you for doing poorly.

I don't mind super guides per se, but that damn pig in DKCR was pretty annoying trying to shove the super guide in your face. I never use them though, as they destroy any and all satisfaction I'd get out of beating the level myself.

In any case, people who feel compelled to use super guides would probably just use a FAQ if they weren't there anyway. Besides, if super guides give devs the security of knowing that they won't alienate casual players with too high of difficulty, that's grand.


edit: I'm reminded of the old Crash Bandicoot games that would give you an Aku Aku if you died too many times without progressing. I think this is slightly better than basically skipping the level, but I wish it were optional to turn off.

(06-09-2011, 07:19 PM)Glukom Wrote: it bothers me how oot3d apparently bugs you constantly to look at hint movies because its annoying, pointless

where are you getting this information? I think I read somewhere that you can't even watch the hint movies unless you've screwed up on a puzzle enough times, so it doesn't make sense to me that the game would bother you to watch them unless you're really performing poorly...

?

(06-09-2011, 11:58 PM)Phantom Kojjiro Wrote:

(06-09-2011, 07:19 PM)Glukom Wrote: it bothers me how oot3d apparently bugs you constantly to look at hint movies because its annoying, pointless

where are you getting this information? I think I read somewhere that you can't even watch the hint movies unless you've screwed up on a puzzle enough times, so it doesn't make sense to me that the game would bother you to watch them unless you're really performing poorly...

?

here's an excerpt from nintendo power's review of oot3d

Quote:“While she [Navi] does sometimes give useful hints, more often then not she interrupts the game to repeatedly suggest that you take a break from playing or go watch a hint movie. Turning to her for advice when I’m hopelessly stuck only to get great tips like ‘Keep Moving!’ or ‘The barrier is blocking the door, there must be some way of opening it’ is like pouring salt into a wound.”

to be fair it only mentions hint movies as one of these annoyances, but regardless that's basically the only point i'm making

if new evidence suggests that navi does not in fact bother you a lot about hint movies and shit then i'll be very happy, but based on this i'm just a little worried

It sounds to me like Navi does the same thing she's been doing, but with movies.

(06-10-2011, 12:19 AM)Kriven Wrote: It sounds to me like Navi does the same thing she's been doing, but with movies.

if i recall correctly the review also said navi interrupts more in oot3d, so there's that

anyway this is about super guides, not oot3d

i guess the ultimate point i'm trying to make is that i'd be ok with super guides as long as they stay not intrusive, though i do find them unnecessary and could see them causing some problems in the future if they're poorly implemented

I'm okay with Super Guides as long as they don't beat the freaking level for you.

Navi interruping to ask you take a break is actually fairly expected/sensible what with the 3D not being too great on your eyes if you're playing for more than an hour. And it's a pretty separate issue to the existance of Super Guides. Since Navi is required for every possible notification Link might need (what with Link having no other 'party' members, and being mute), they'd probably stack up. And it's not like Navi is the only character in OoT who has annoying and intrusive dialogue.

To summarise/repeat what I said in the other thread; Super Guides are pretty much fine, and I don't mind at all they're showing more games. If it means I can play a game and finish it without getting too frustrated on any one part, then I'd be perfectly satisfied. The quality of the game does come into it, though. If a game is one that I'm finding fun, but I use the SG to beat part of it, I may be encouraged to go back and try it solo. If the game isn't fun, and I kick in the use of the super guide (Although why I'm playing a bad game is beyond me); then yeah, I might end up skipping a whole lot of the game. But only because I'm not finding it much fun otherwise.

Whether Super Guides are a 'good' or 'bad' inclusion depends entirely on how good and engrossing the game itself is. Super Guides are pretty much nothing but a back-stage feature and aren't a negative impact on their own.

(06-10-2011, 02:22 AM)GrooveMan.exe Wrote: And it's not like Navi is the only character in OoT who has annoying and intrusive dialogue.

hoo-hoo fuck you-hoo

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i generally wouldnt use a super guide ever in any game, at least, i havent yet

i instead kinda spend approximately 3 hours in the same area if i know theres something i need to do, trying out every item in every place i can

thats the only way id have ever beaten ocarina of time to begin with because i tend to get through half of the temple, stop playing for a day which turns into a month, go back to it, forget where i was, and then am like welp

the thought of having super guides in more games would be nice considering if i know i cant figure something out, i at least have the option without having to use an faq because i generally dislike having to basically translate the faq text to images i keep in my memory

See you guys keep dodging the issue of the game playing for you. Videos and hints are one thing, but when you are given the option to have the level beaten for you... what do you think of that?

Deal with it. Not everybody is as boss as you, koopaul.

(06-10-2011, 03:07 AM)Koopaul Wrote: See you guys keep dodging the issue of the game playing for you. Videos and hints are one thing, but when you are given the option to have the level beaten for you... what do you think of that?

Who's dodging. I'm saying that if there was a stage that I got stuck on and it stopped being fun, I would sure as fuck skip that stage. If the game was good despite that, then I might go back and beat it myself later.

I think the main part of this debate (and where it starts getting really silly) Is that people are expecting others to not want Super Guides because they themselves don't use it. TBH, if you're someone who isn't inclined to use SGs, then arging about the use of SGs is pretty redundant for you. it's not aimed at people who don't want the help, and it doesn't force them to use it, either.

(06-09-2011, 07:01 PM)Ngamer01 Wrote: Some expressed outright worry or dislike of this Super Guide saying games will be made easy or developers will get lazy in making the games. Uh, it's only been mostly used by Nintendo (and Retro for DKC Returns), but other developers have used tricks to assist the less experienced (some FPSs lately have auto-regenerating health).

if i recall, nintendo actually PATENTED the Super Guide "technology" long before NSMB came out - Nintendo actually filed a patent which we found out about when like Twilight Princess came out (yeah, imagine if they put THAT into Twilight Princess; Nintendosirs would be so buttmad) so other developers seriously cannot incorporate the Super Guide as it'd require they would actually have to pay Nintendo to use it

Personally...okay well I'm not sure how to approach Super Guides. I mean, as "seasoned gamers" we see no use for them but for younger gamers and today's "casual gamers", I guess it's a pretty good thing to have as it gives them an even playing field when playing through NSMB -- I mean, despite the fact you'll get better at the game just by playing, there are concepts that veteran players understand but new players don't (e.g. midair roll -> jump in DKC, run -> duck and get momentum, then jump your way through in NSMB) which may make some stages extremely difficult and sometimes, just plain not fun

(06-10-2011, 04:54 AM)GaryCXJk Wrote: Deal with it. Not everybody is as boss as you, koopaul.

way 2 b a dick man n shut down 2paul like dat................ :'(