(07-16-2011, 10:30 PM)Alpha Six Wrote:

(07-16-2011, 10:27 PM)Glukom Wrote: I don't think some of you give enough credit to society. Do you legitimately know that the majority of people agree that being a manwhore is a perfectly fine thing?

Yes, because I live in a place where I witness these things happening daily, I watch TV that supports it frequently, and I personally know people all over the world that think it's totally okay.

I don't think you give enough credit to the people that are actually a part of the "larger" society. Just because you and your friends think it's wrong doesn't mean you're suddenly part of a giant majority that thinks it's wrong.

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PS: Of course manwhoring is going to be used in a comedy sense-- it's funny to us, after all! And not disgusting or demeaning at all! As long as somebody's laughing, it's perfectly okay!

We're laughing because we know in regular society it's NOT ok. Or at least that's why I do, that's why everyone I know does. It's funny BECAUSE it's disgusting and demeaning.

And how am I any less qualified in my opinions than you? What makes the people in your experience "larger society" while those in mine are just "my friends"?

(07-16-2011, 10:36 PM)Glukom Wrote: We're laughing because we know in regular society it's NOT ok. Or at least that's why I do, that's why everyone I know does. It's funny BECAUSE it's disgusting and demeaning.

And this is how people get away with being crass assholes, racists, and sexists! Because as long as people are laughing, they'll get away with it. And this is another flaw of society; "Edgy Is Funny, Regardless of Peoples' Feelings." But that is a different debate for another time.

(07-16-2011, 10:36 PM)Glukom Wrote: And how am I any less qualified in my opinions than you? What makes the people in your experience "larger society" while those in mine are just "my friends"?

Because the people in my "experience" are larger society. And it has nothing to do that I live in Las Vegas-- the people that are here are indicative of other places too.

Go to a high school campus and tell me most of the guys there aren't into promiscuous sex, bragging about who they slept with, and trying to get new people daily.

Go to a COLLEGE campus and tell me most of the guys there aren't into promiscuous sex, bragging about who they slept with, and trying to get new people daily.

Go to a public place that isn't a library or a church and tell me most of the guys there aren't into promiscuous sex, bragging about who they slept with, and trying to get new people daily.

Survey people if you have to.


If you can honestly tell me that you don't ever run into people like that, you are living in an incredibly secluded area and, guess what, a small minority of society.

This is the general public. And this is the problem. And as long as people continue to be blind about these sorts of things, this will continue to happen, and people will continue to not understand.

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One place looking like it's less indicative of society does not mean that society is Perfectly Fine. That is being blind.

i legitimately want to do a survey now

if i do i'll get back to you as soon as i can

holy moley this is why i hate it when people don't actually manage to comprehend the scope of sexism

yall say that it's only a "minority" that views women this way. you are flat-out fucking wrong and apparently horribly out of touch with how the vast majority of society views different genders. it's not just "dudebros" who are under these impressions (whether consciously or subconsciously); it's virtually everyone who hasn't made the effort to educate themselves on how they are reinforcing a heavily patriarchal system. and quit saying that certain topics related to sexism don't apply here. they are all intertwined and built off of each other.

it's very much a fact that most of society treats promiscuity as a desirable trait in men and an undesirable trait in women. hell, there have been tons of studies dedicated to just this topic (and you're more than privileged enough to find them your own damn selves) that prove just this point. a man is rarely labeled a "whore", because fuck yeah, banging all those women is manly as hell! conversely, a woman doesn't have to sleep with many people- or even none at all!- to be labeled a "whore" or a "slut". (by the way, it would be super if yall would refrain from using those terms, as they're hella offensive. "promiscuous" is more acceptable.)

sleeping with many people isn't "morally wrong", regardless of gender. rather than saying, "oh women aren't 'allowed' to be promiscuous, so we should bring men down to the same level!" we should be saying, "men aren't vilified for sleeping with people, so women shouldn't be either".

and just because there's a gratuitous amount of male gaze in videogames doesn't mean it should be totally discarded because "it's just a videogame". what the fuck are you, 12? sexism is just as inappropriate in videogames as it is it any other kind of media. people who care much more about the gameplay than the themes a videogame reinforces ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

to back up tyvon's case, whenever a woman is highly promiscuous with different partners, she is called a slut or a whore, regardless of protection and things like that. this happens on tv, high school, and wherever else. the main argument is whether men are treated the same way in a majority of the population. well, just look at a beer commercial for instance. they show the pinnacle of masculinity as being with a different girl every night, regardless of protection and things like that. you cant say this isn isolated to beer commercials either, this is prevalent throughout almost all of entertainment.

hell, its not even much of a stretch to say that the exact same behavior is considered an indicator of the worst, most deplorable type of female, and yet, not only acceptable in males, but often shown as ideal.

I was using the term "whore" specifically to make the distinction between it and promiscuity. Nothing's wrong with promiscuity, something IS wrong if you're doing it like an asshole (I clarified this earlier, probably more than once).

the point is that we know sexism is bad, and that people are sexist, but i'm not entirely sure the majority of people are so shallow that they believe its ok to be a manwhore

and in my experience the main examples of the media portraying this kind of behavior portray it negatively or comically (because we know its negative)


which is why i'd like to find out before i discuss it further

(07-16-2011, 10:52 PM)lord bestfriendgeny Wrote: and just because there's a gratuitous amount of male gaze in videogames doesn't mean it should be totally discarded because "it's just a videogame". what the fuck are you, 12? sexism is just as inappropriate in videogames as it is it any other kind of media.

Wait, did anyone say anything to the contrary? I don't think I did; I just said that there are in fact quite a few strong female characters in videogames, especially playable ones, and Bayonetta and others are included in this, especially when controlled by a skilled player.

Quote:people who care much more about the gameplay than the themes a videogame reinforces ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

What the fuck man? This is literally the most mind-boggling thing I've read in this topic. Are we going into Jack Thompson territory now? Do videogames perpetuate themes of violence because the red pixels fly out of the human pixels and ruin our kids, and perpetuate themes of misogyny because you can hit women in Deus Ex 3 (even though you can also hit men too), and perpetuate themes of anti-socialness because CoD has online multiplayer? Then again I guess we're finally in the age where videogames are now vehicles for social change or something, and mechanics are just a secondary concern compared to themes.

The "themes" of a game are almost always purely aesthetic, and can be changed without impacting the essence of the game, therefore making them completely secondary in criticism or discussion of said game.

if they're purely aesthetic then why can't they be changed to something, i dunno, a little less gratuitously fucking sexist

in violent videogames most people don't look upon them and think, "oh this violence is perfectly acceptable in a real-life situation". in videogames that reinforce sexist themes, however, the majority of people accept them as something that is Totally Normal in an everyday situation. i'm sorry that you're too fucking ignorant to realise that.

(07-16-2011, 11:21 PM)DavidCaruso Wrote: What the fuck man? This is literally the most mind-boggling thing I've read in this topic. Are we going into Jack Thompson territory now? Do videogames perpetuate themes of violence because the red pixels fly out of the human pixels and ruin our kids, and perpetuate themes of misogyny because you can hit women in Deus Ex 3 (even though you can also hit men too), and perpetuate themes of anti-socialness because CoD has online multiplayer? Then again I guess we're finally in the age where videogames are now vehicles for social change or something, and mechanics are just a secondary concern compared to themes (never mind that the "themes" of a game are almost always purely aesthetic, and can be changed without impacting the essence of the game, therefore making them completely secondary in any criticism or discussion of said game).

there's a difference between content and themes for one thing. most games, movies, etc... are full of actions which are in no way okay in real life, violence, murder, and such, but it is either made clear that it is wrong, or treated in a manner that is impossible to take it that the people behind the movie are endorsing it. with the male gaze, it is framed in a way that Women Must be Sexy all the time. on top of that, saying that the themes of a game can just be ignored because there's a gameplay aspect is just idiotic. are you saying a game with undertones about how cool child porn is is okay because its just games?

(07-16-2011, 11:21 PM)DavidCaruso Wrote: The "themes" of a game are almost always purely aesthetic, and can be changed without impacting the essence of the game, therefore making them completely secondary in criticism or discussion of said game.

Sorry, but if I found a game with the perfect action gameplay but it was about hanging black people in the 1800s, I'm not going to fucking play it.

The problem stems less from the media, and more from reality itself. Media is designed to portray exaggerated aspects of reality, not to manipulate it. If we want the media to stop portraying women in an objectified manner, we need to stop treating them in an objectified manner. The whole idea is to create a character you can relate to, and if you can't relate to lifting every skirt, then there won't be any of it.

I also don't see why women can't produce media that objectifies men. There isn't a law against it. Actually, Kesha does it. Equal treatment for all, right? If there were an audience for it, that is...

However, whenever a woman has the opportunity to do that, to create something that totally objectifies men and makes them the prize for the swashbuckling female lead, she does not choose to explore it. Take Twilight, for example. Sure, Edward is treated a bit like an object, but you know who is treated more like an object? Bella, and it makes her HOT. And Twilight has sold like hot cakes. That says something about the mentality of the youth of both genders, and what roles they actually choose to accept and endorse.

Also, this same basic thing, the woman swooning over a guy who treats her like a sex doll, is basically what you'll find in any one of the hundreds of thousands of woman's erotic novels that are selling well enough to keep their authors happy.

like i said, we should focus a little less on "denigrating both genders", and a little more on "neither gender should be objectified"

e: i totally don't mean to ignore non-binary genders in my posts but unfortunately there's... not a whole lot to go on there in popular media, SORRY FOLKS

Quote:in violent videogames most people don't look upon them and think, "oh this violence is perfectly acceptable in a real-life situation". in videogames that reinforce sexist themes, however, the majority of people accept them as something that is Totally Normal in an everyday situation. i'm sorry that you're too fucking ignorant to realise that.

Can you name some examples of videogames that reinforce overt sexist themes, that the majority of people would accept as Totally Normal? I can't think of many off the top of my head right now; closest is DNF, but even with that I think most realized that the game's themes weren't Totally Normal at all (and also that it was a bad game to boot). Is an attractive female character reinforcing a sexist theme?

Quote:there's a difference between content and themes for one thing. most games, movies, etc... are full of actions which are in no way okay in real life, violence, murder, and such, but it is either made clear that it is wrong, or treated in a manner that is impossible to take it that the people behind the movie are endorsing it. with the male gaze, it is framed in a way that Women Must be Sexy all the time. on top of that, saying that the themes of a game can just be ignored because there's a gameplay aspect is just idiotic. are you saying a game with undertones about how cool child porn is is okay because its just games?

Well, define "undertones." For example, many of the new RPGs and 2D shooters from Japan have flagrant loli moe pandering (I remember there was a Cave shooter which actually listed the characters' ages on the select screen), but from what I've seen generally most fans of the genres are able to get over that (grudgingly) if the game content is great.

And I didn't say themes and aesthetics should be ignored, I said they should be secondary. When I look up a review for Duke Nukem Forever I don't want the majority of the review to be dedicated to how the game's attempts at humor are unfunny and offensive (how does the reviewer even know everyone else will be offended by it btw?) and just a few paragraphs describing how it's actually a bad game in addition to that - I just think that's a skewed sense of priority. So to clarify what I said earlier (which was kind of extreme and assholish in retrospect, and written quickly in response to a statement I interpreted as "a game's themes are more important than how it plays"), I don't think the commentary on that kind of stuff should be outright not mentioned, since it is still a major part of the game's aesthetics; it just shouldn't be the main focus. And I do think horrible aesthetics can ruin a game, or at least bring it down a lot, but those cases (for me, at least) are usually very rare and extreme. The examples you and Tyvon said would probably fall in that category.

For the child porn and hanging black people thing, yeah fair enough. I probably wouldn't play or enjoy those games very much either even if they were actually that amazing, because the aesthetics (more specifically "themes" in this case) don't appeal to me. However, I would want critics and/or people attempting to seriously talk about said games to at least acknowledge and praise their technical or mechanical excellence, even if they dock some points for child porn/hanging, instead of just moralizing about the themes and leaving it at that (which is what would likely happen in reality). Maybe then we'd get a fan-hacked version or the devs would do a rerelease or something, and then we'd have the best action game ever period instead of the best action game ever except the focus is on hanging black people.

Also I agree that ideally neither gender should be objectified in media, but the problem there is, where do you draw the line between idealization (using attractive and idealized people for the sake of escapism, with situations and people larger/better than real life) and oversexualization? I said earlier that with movies/TV I think the line would be when a scene or a character serves almost to no narrative purpose other than basically fanservice, but I don't think anyone responded to that.

first of all, idk where you're getting the idea that a theme is aesthetic. a theme will resonate through the entire game, in the aesthetics, the plot, and, in a well constructed game, in the gameplay. its a far more important aspect of the game than you are making it out to be. in duke nukem forever, the misogynistic themes resound through the game, in the aesthetics, the story, and even in the gameplay. this makes it VERY hard to ignore and far more prevalent than the gameplay flaws, however egregious they may be.

just stop
just don't post

if you think that awful themes in videogames should "just dock the games a few points" there's no hope in getting you to understand the problems inherent with accepting women being treated as weak and unable to function without a male behind her/women being treated as cheesecake and fanservice with or without the flimsy excuse of "but she's a strong woman who's in control of her sexuality"

comparing this to outrageous things like child porn/lynching is a non sequitur, because as it stand these things are reviled in our society, while sexism is highly prevalent and accepted
seriously the gameplay and mechanics of a game do not matter one fucking bit if the content is going to openly display out-and-out discrimination and marginalisation of any group, not just women

grow up and get out of your fantasy world of "a game is good if its gameplay is good and nothing else matters". rapelay could have been the pinnacle of pc gaming with fantastic gameplay and beautiful graphics, but at the end of the day it's still a video game about raping women (which is, as i hope you know but at this point i am not completely sure, a Bad Thing).