(01-31-2012, 06:21 PM)Keychain Wrote:

(01-31-2012, 05:20 PM)masquerain Wrote: I just played through Rin's path and well... I honestly liked it. The actual prose could have been a lot better (Hisao is the king of stupid sounding similes) but I feel like the story/plot itself and the characters were pretty well done.

Probably not going to do any of the other paths in case they're annoying or disappointing :c

and I agree with Dio that a less generic anime style would have been cool, but eh, it is the dating sim genre...

Every path is good besides Shizune's. Do Hanako's!

I was thinking of Hanako's and Shizune's but I guess I'll do Hanako's.

I need a bit to recover, though. Going through Rin's path has made me realize a lot of things about myself.

lol at people defending the ~literary merit~ of a porn game in which you can infantilise a girl with disabilities and 'adopt' her if you bone her best friend

truly a deep social commentary on disability and an ableist society. they ought to take flowers for algernon off the syllabus and get kids to play this instead.

(02-01-2012, 08:32 AM)Stabsinthe Wrote: lol at people defending the ~literary merit~ of a porn game in which you can infantilise a girl with disabilities and 'adopt' her if you bone her best friend

truly a deep social commentary on disability and an ableist society. they ought to take flowers for algernon off the syllabus and get kids to play this instead.

Is it wrong, enjoying something with 'isms' in it?

This isn't a rhetorical question. I honestly want to know what you think.

I thought Rin's story was a well-told story. I didn't think it was a literary masterpiece or anything.

I can't say anything about the other paths, though.

I just want to know, is it wrong to enjoy a good yarn if it's sexist or ableist or homophobic or supportive of pedophiles or anything like that? Or should we avoid reading/playing/listening to anything that has any sort of -ism in it?

aka that means you aren't able to enjoy anything because the world isn't politically correct



(Also this ends here. I'm also with Vipershark, this isn't place to go personal. Discuss about the game only.)

Just got through Act 1 with Hanako. She's definitely the most intriguing character I've met in the game so far. I'm trying to get through without spoiling anything for myself; that sort of ruined Shizune's route for me.

i'm not saying you cannot enjoy things with problematic elements
but you can't talk about what a great game this is wrt disability when it's got an awful lot of shitty offensive things in it. ffs the word 'katawa' is approximate to 'cripple', that is not a respectful term.

if you're going to play/read/whatever media that has problematic elements in it, those elements need to be discussed
you don't just go "well it's a great thing anyway regardless of how it treats a minority group"; because that's making your enjoyment to be more important than the comfort of already-marginalised groups, which is just fucking insensitive.
you are basically saying "well your feelings aren't valid leave me to my moe"

the problem is the plot point i'm talking about is presented as a good thing to be doing. that's paternalistic and shitty; it's presented without any negative implications or anyone pointing out "hey this is an 18 year old with a disability, you are being abusive"
this reinforces existing prejudices that people with disabilities actually have to deal with and that's not okay.

and I'm discussing the fucking game
what is it with you lot that criticism is apparently never allowed? is your definition of discussion "endless asspats with no disagreement ever"
i'm not saying YOU MUST BE PERSONALLY OFFENDED AS I AM, i'll admit to having ~personal reasons~ to be pissed off, but at least acknowledge that despite alleged good intentions it's still got problematic elements that need to be criticised. just because it doesn't affect you guys doesn't mean it's not important, that's really myopic and selfish.

(02-01-2012, 10:18 AM)Stabsinthe Wrote: you don't just go "well it's a great thing anyway regardless of how it treats a minority group"; because that's making your enjoyment to be more important than the comfort of already-marginalised groups, which is just fucking insensitive.

[...]

just because it doesn't affect you guys doesn't mean it's not important, that's really myopic and selfish.

I'm going to go ahead and say that I am actually a really insensitive and selfish person

and then not say any more, because it would get into -actual- personal shit and i don't want to wreck your or anyone else's "positive" impression of me

i'm going to bow out of this thread until the shitstorm ends (if there is one)

I haven't read through all of Hanako's route, so I'm at no place to judge how shitty a person Hisao is to her in the story, but most of the elements of Hanako's personality point to a radical case of post-traumatic stress disorder

From the article:
Symptoms of PTS Increased anxiety and emotional arousal
- Hypervigilance (on constant “red alert”)
- Feeling jumpy and easily startled

Hanako is always startled when you first begin interacting with her. In your first interaction, she finds an excuse to leave as quick as she possibly can, and in noticeably on edge during the whole exchange.

Other common symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
- Guilt, shame, or self-blame
- Feeling alienated and alone

It's fairly obvious that Hanako's detached from the rest of the class. While you work with Shizune and Misha on class assignments, she's always sitting at a desk by herself, book in hand. The guilt and shame could definitely contribute to her timidity and social awkwardness.

Symptoms of PTSD in children and adolescents
- Acting out the trauma through play, stories, or drawings

The "floor games" she plays with the tiles in the school hallway suggest that she might be acting out her past trauma in some way. I haven't completed the path yet, but it's not too uncommon for children with PTSD to do similar things.

I'm not 100% sure as to why she hasn't really mentally matured past the age of 12, but I'm sure the lull in psychological development can be somehow linked to the source of the trauma. The stunted growth might also be why she's so dependent on others, as she's never really moved away from her past.


Regarding the name of the game, the creators decided to stay with the name on the RAITA sketch that spawned the whole project. While I find it horrible that they decided to keep a title with such a negative connotation, the sketch is the reason why they worked on bringing the project to fruition in the first place, so I suppose they kept it out of some sense of nostalgia.

idk i don't get that impression; like i said, it's fine to enjoy things that have problematic elements
but if someone points out it's problematic it's grossly insensitive to dismiss their feelings and act like because you don't care, neither should they

which is pretty much exactly what "UGH STOP BEING SO PC" is doing
i don't exactly want to tell y'all my medical history but this is something i have personal reasons for, and i think it's perfectly valid to bring that up when discussing the game as a story, as people are here
it's pretty ridiculous to one minute be all "yeah this is really meaningful stuff" and then people get all upset when others either point out "this really isn't as deep as you think it is" or "this actually suggests some shitty things"
either you want to treat it as a valid storytelling medium, or you don't. it's not really consistent to say 'this is an excellent story but i will accept no criticisms of the story'

(02-01-2012, 10:18 AM)Stabsinthe Wrote: i'm not saying you cannot enjoy things with problematic elements
but you can't talk about what a great game this is wrt disability when it's got an awful lot of shitty offensive things in it. ffs the word 'katawa' is approximate to 'cripple', that is not a respectful term.

if you're going to play/read/whatever media that has problematic elements in it, those elements need to be discussed
you don't just go "well it's a great thing anyway regardless of how it treats a minority group"; because that's making your enjoyment to be more important than the comfort of already-marginalised groups, which is just fucking insensitive.
you are basically saying "well your feelings aren't valid leave me to my moe"

the problem is the plot point i'm talking about is presented as a good thing to be doing. that's paternalistic and shitty; it's presented without any negative implications or anyone pointing out "hey this is an 18 year old with a disability, you are being abusive"
this reinforces existing prejudices that people with disabilities actually have to deal with and that's not okay.

and I'm discussing the fucking game
what is it with you lot that criticism is apparently never allowed? is your definition of discussion "endless asspats with no disagreement ever"
i'm not saying YOU MUST BE PERSONALLY OFFENDED AS I AM, i'll admit to having ~personal reasons~ to be pissed off, but at least acknowledge that despite alleged good intentions it's still got problematic elements that need to be criticised. just because it doesn't affect you guys doesn't mean it's not important, that's really myopic and selfish.

and again a should-be first post

I believe I said it before but why does it take two tries for people to make a good, discussionable post?

I am okay with discussions, but the way you're conveying it sounds too blunt, at least for me. Maybe I am the problem here, I don't know, and I'm sorry if it is, but I believe this could very well be discussed without causing too much trouble and/or assholish comments.

It's also good to remember that this forum was never good with discussing that in general, so I am really trying to avoid a second mess from happening. Go ahead and discuss, but at least do it without getting too exalted.

Again, I am sincerely sorry if I caused trouble and that's not what I meant in the first place. I am aware that this is a real issue that's worth discussing and all, but I also really don't want to see this crumbling apart again.

i'll admit to being overly terse
i am kind of dealing with Personally Related Things as of... yesterday, actually, whoa.

but it is pretty silly to say that the way in which a point is made affects its validity. suigin's entitled to his opinion that the writing and art are mediocre
it's pretty unfair that he got jumped on because he didn't say that in a nice enough way! he wasn't really particularly venomous he was just... curt and didn't use much punctuation
and that's how i communicate by default

and tbh i'd much rather if the discussion of how this treats disabilities was stopped
since like i said i am kind of raw on the subject

actually it might be an idea for you to delete my posts idk what i was even thinking. i still think my points were valid, but i really don't see this line of discussion going to good places

Thank you very much for contributing, though. I think it's nice to have an opinion on the opposite end of the spectrum. While I may not be able to personally relate to the issues you have with this game, I can see where you might find them. The first post you made was a tad hostile, but you make a very good argument for your case, and I respect that.

Looking back, it was a dick move for me and for others to jump on Suigin for his post, but he could have just left it at "mediocre writing and art" without adding the bit about 4chan at the end. 4Leaf has openly admitted that they don't wish to be associated with 4chan, and that they're a separate entity entirely. Yes, the project was spawned on the boards, but it separated itself from them, too.

(02-01-2012, 11:14 AM)Stabsinthe Wrote: i'll admit to being overly terse
i am kind of dealing with Personally Related Things as of... yesterday, actually, whoa.

but it is pretty silly to say that the way in which a point is made affects its validity. suigin's entitled to his opinion that the writing and art are mediocre
it's pretty unfair that he got jumped on because he didn't say that in a nice enough way! he wasn't really particularly venomous he was just... curt and didn't use much punctuation
and that's how i communicate by default

and tbh i'd much rather if the discussion of how this treats disabilities was stopped
since like i said i am kind of raw on the subject

actually it might be an idea for you to delete my posts idk what i was even thinking. i still think my points were valid, but i really don't see this line of discussion going to good places

Don't worry, Zeemort. I understand all that post.

I'll left your posts because it's got genuine content, as with suigin's. I even agreed with him on the mediocre art part. I just wish it could be less blunt, as per se, this isn't a subject tSR is well-known for handling calmly.

(02-01-2012, 11:03 AM)ThePortalGuru Wrote: From the article:
Symptoms of PTS Increased anxiety and emotional arousal
- Hypervigilance (on constant “red alert”)
- Feeling jumpy and easily startled

Other common symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
- Guilt, shame, or self-blame
- Feeling alienated and alone

Symptoms of PTSD in children and adolescents
- Acting out the trauma through play, stories, or drawings

The "floor games" she plays with the tiles in the school hallway suggest that she might be acting out her past trauma in some way. I haven't completed the path yet, but it's not too uncommon for children with PTSD to do similar things.

The fact that I display literally every one of these symptoms concerns me.

i uh
wow look at me defending a dating sim

(02-01-2012, 10:18 AM)Stabsinthe Wrote: the problem is the plot point i'm talking about is presented as a good thing to be doing. that's paternalistic and shitty; it's presented without any negative implications or anyone pointing out "hey this is an 18 year old with a disability, you are being abusive"
this reinforces existing prejudices that people with disabilities actually have to deal with and that's not okay.

the characters will actually get really mad at you if you go into the game and make choices that make you come off as paternalistic and shitty. they're uh, """real""" girls with """real""" problems and you go into it like "yea u had car accident but i want u 2 be safe" you will legitimately
and absolutely
get bitched out by the characters of this game.
the game actively encourages you to not be a shallow asshole and forces you to look at the girls in the game like people and not like helpless animes to the point where by act 3, you're concerned about their more "realistic" situations than "welp i better not say IM BURNIN UP in here or my gf mite get offanded"

eh. i think keychain would be better suited at saying a thing or two about this game than i would im kinda mixed on it myself
i like the aspect of it being an emotional rollercoaster of a game though