Wow... rage... erm... don't you think maybe some guy just said something maybe a bit dumb and you shouldn't base a whole game on a few quotes?

Gears of War is pretty damn sexist and no one got upset about that. As for protecting people, I dunno I've always felt bad when Drake died (Sully always sounds so upset). And Vincent in Catherine defiantly needs help. I mean he's as weak as men come in a way. Sure your not the character in a lot of these games, but I never felt like I was an outsider urging them along or protecting them either.

No doubt we'll see Lara become super confident and kick-ass as things go on, this is an origin story and all that. If it was a male character people wouldn't even be batting an eye-lid...



+ Yeah I agree Viper Shark, this year was pretty bad but well, wouldn't be the first time. Swings and roundabouts man, swings and roundabouts.

(06-12-2012, 02:27 PM)Goemar Wrote: The point of gaming is entertainment. At the end of the day that's all games are (yes I just kicked the whole games are art thing in the balls - trust me it deserves it, damn meddling thing...)

I take issue with this. What's wrong with wanting video games as a medium to be taken more seriously? I mean, you can make the argument "it's just entertainment" for books, movies and TV as well, but they're still mostly respected by the general public as art. Sure they have their bad eggs but you've got things like the Oscar's and Emmy's where the really artful things are recognized.

On the other hand, the thing that most people outside of the video game industry (as in, anyone who doesn't constantly follow games) see is E3. Which, as Vipershark pointed out, is pretty much a pissing contest. It'd be really nice if the video game industry could clean up and present itself a little better to the public instead of perpetuating the incredibly negative image that the industry has created.

(06-12-2012, 02:53 PM)Goemar Wrote: Wow... rage... erm...

Usually I just roll my eyes about this stuff, but it's Tomb Raider, for goodness sake. Lara Croft is like, super important. Why? Because how many big-budget female protagonists do you know?

(06-12-2012, 02:53 PM)Goemar Wrote: don't you think maybe some guy just said something maybe a bit dumb and you shouldn't base a whole game on a few quotes?

Even if we ignore the big-game picture, it's not okay for people in charge of games to say stuff like this. It wasn't "a bit dumb", it had all sorts of terrible implications. If this is the sort of intentions they had for their game, then it's just not okay. It's not like this is uncommon, either. This is FAR FAR FAR from a unique case.

(06-12-2012, 02:53 PM)Goemar Wrote: Gears of War is pretty damn sexist and no one got upset about that.

Oops I guess? Why does that even matter?

(06-12-2012, 02:53 PM)Goemar Wrote: As for protecting people, I dunno I've always felt bad when Drake died (Sully always sounds so upset). And Vincent in Catherine defiantly needs help. I mean he's as weak as men come in a way. Sure your not the character in a lot of these games, but I never felt like I was an outsider urging them along or protecting them either.

Like I said, you can feel bad, but you never want to "protect" them.

(06-12-2012, 02:53 PM)Goemar Wrote: I never felt like I was an outsider urging them along or protecting them either.

I mean, that's what the article said. That you'll feel like an outsider protecting her. And because she's female.

(06-12-2012, 02:53 PM)Goemar Wrote: No doubt we'll see Lara become super confident and kick-ass as things go on, this is an origin story and all that. If it was a male character people wouldn't even be batting an eye-lid...

Yes because males in video games just have it so bad right (except

they don't

there's plenty of flaws yes but it's not nearly as bad as the situation with female protagonists so please don't go what about the mens on me)

Sex became an issue the moment "female protagonist" was uttered. Do some research on women in video games and then tell me there isn't a problem.

(06-12-2012, 02:53 PM)Goemar Wrote: If it was a male character people wouldn't even be batting an eye-lid...

hi i just want you to know a little something about Society real quick

SOCIETY'S DEFINITION OF GENDER:
male: the Man. the source of power, the strongest being on earth, always in the right

female: the Woman. the Weaker Sex who should only be doing things men tell them to do and can be assaulted for refusing at any time



now here is the part where you say "but tyvon, men go through the EXACT same thing sometimes! men get raped and they get beat up by women!! why does nobody care when it happens to a man??????


this is the reason:

the chances of being assaulted in any way, shape, or form, increase drastically when you are female. because women are "weak."

putting a "weak" woman into a role that involves her being assaulted and tormented is not going to make anybody feel better about her Inevitable Triumph In The End, because she is not the one making the decisions. you are, and it is clear by what the developers said, that you are literally guiding her through her quest to become Stronger. you are supposed to feel like this character cannot succeed unless you hold her hand through the way.

saying "nobody would care if it happened to a man" downplays the entire issue-- they gave a woman a lead role as a helpless victim who literally needs The Player's help to avoid getting raped and murdered. "if the hero was male" you would probably be the one doing all of the saving and asskicking, regardless of the situation you're in. (edit: and CERTAINLY nobody would want to sexually assault you, because the heterosexual male is the one with the most power in society and a straight male would never sexually assault another straight male )

do you see the flaw here?

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(06-12-2012, 02:53 PM)Goemar Wrote: Gears of War is pretty damn sexist and no one got upset about that.

gears of war is not NEARLY as sexist because you actually have a reason to care about the female characters in that game, and guess what? THEY CAN DEFEND THEMSELVES NO PROBLEM

in Gears of War, everyone is part of a unit. everybody is working together to overcome the obstacle and save their world. the only sexism in Gears of War is the character designs, and even then they're barely on the offending side when compared to... basically everything else out on the market!

so why you had to mention Gears of War like it was some kind of giant offender that people should have gotten mad about, i will never understand

Games are art. Being art isn't important. The whole games as art thing just holds no importance to me.
How does being art make it better? Art now days can be blow-up dolls having sex or an empty white room with a light bulb in it.
If everyone turned around and said "Yes games are art" after a bit of patting ourselves on the back we'd be where we are now, well except we'd be arguing over what games are in fact not art. The word art allows Call of Duty to art as much as it allows Journey to be. It's flawed by definition alone.

I also don't know of many gamers who just see E3, specially here in the UK where the only why you know about E3 is by going on game related websites.
I'd also like to point out that FPS games has been the main genre since Doom. Doom - and that's really fricking old. As much as I hate it the majority of gamers love FPS games and that's just how it is. If company's sat down and said "Hey lets stop making these games that make use money and make more artistic games that may not sell" we'd be reading about how that company closed down. Sure it may be a great game, but these are people's jobs on the line.

No one is making you play these games, and the uninformed people who think games are all blood and shooting would just be uninformed people who think games are all arty bollocks if a swing was to happen. Everything is under attack from the uninformed masses be it gaming, sex (taboos for example) or religion.

What makes money gets made. Big companies can't risk millions on something that might not sell. It's great we have such amazing downloadable services such as Steam, the PS-Store and XBLA to enjoy the creative brilliance of those who are willing to take a risk but we can't expect bigger companies to not make games that sell. It is, after all a business and as a great man once said...

"It's nothing personal Jack, it's just good business"

(Also last time I checked the film industry's image is rather grim (a million Saw films, Human Centipede 2 etc.) and the best selling books now days are utterly crap - aka Twilight).




As for the sexist thing. Yes sexism in games is bad. But it's also bad in films and the world in general. I'm not saying sexism isn't bad but it's not like this is something new and shocking (Lara's tits being made giant in Tomb Raider 2 for example). I'm also quite sure a lot of opinions about sexism in this game are being made waaaay too early.
Gears of War is an example of how male sexism has generally been excepted (aka muscle-bound, invincible killing machines without emotion).

In a world where sexism is the norm in many ways (shouldn't be but is) having a game with an apparently over vulnerable female isn't a reason to be mad at the game - it's a reason to look at the world and sigh in disbelieve.
I loved Joanna Dark because she was a strong woman, and I was upset when they changed her design for Zero but while playing Perfect Dark I felt the same about not getting shot and killed as much as I did while playing Golden Eye.

Maybe I'm too laid back to get into this. I mean black, white, man, woman - I really don't care who I play as or who I talk to. Everyone's the same. I can never get passionate about these issues, sorry.

did you just change the subject entirely or is that supposed to be related in any way to what starsock and i are talking about

I think he was responding more to Tellis. At any rate, the concept for this new Tomb Raider game sounds horrible.

(06-12-2012, 03:23 PM)Alpha Six Wrote: did you just change the subject entirely or is that supposed to be related in any way to what starsock and i are talking about

It's called 2 people posting while your typing my friend. To be honest the fact that this is female Uncharted over being a Tomb Raider game annoys me more...

(06-12-2012, 03:34 PM)Goemar Wrote: To be honest the fact that this is female Uncharted over being a Tomb Raider game annoys me more...

Thank You For Showing Off A Prime Example Of Sexism In Gamer Culture, Goemar

I find that kinda funny coming from some one who worked on Skull Girls sprites...

And like I said man, I'm just too laid back. It's not like it's a non-issue, it's just too big to point at one game and shout about it.

(06-12-2012, 03:18 PM)Goemar Wrote: Gears of War is an example of how male sexism has generally been excepted (aka muscle-bound, invincible killing machines without emotion).

except in society there is nothing wrong with anything you just said and as an objective fact it does not compare to female sexism where women are human garbage

(06-12-2012, 03:18 PM)Goemar Wrote: I loved Joanna Dark because she was a strong woman, and I was upset when they changed her design for Zero but while playing Perfect Dark I felt the same about not getting shot and killed as much as I did while playing Golden Eye.

joanna dark wasn't threatened by rape and was more than capable of defending herself and saving other people in ANY perfect dark game.

(06-12-2012, 03:18 PM)Goemar Wrote: Maybe I'm too laid back to get into this. I mean black, white, man, woman - I really don't care who I play as or who I talk to. Everyone's the same. I can never get passionate about these issues, sorry.

then don't try to talk about a subject like sexism when you don't give a shit about it


all you're going to do is piss people off and waste everyone's time

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(06-12-2012, 03:36 PM)Alpha Six Wrote:

(06-12-2012, 03:34 PM)Goemar Wrote: To be honest the fact that this is female Uncharted over being a Tomb Raider game annoys me more...

Thank You For Showing Off A Prime Example Of Sexism In Gamer Culture, Goemar

btw Uncharted was literally Male Tomb Raider. Thanks For Playing

Tomb Raider was more explorey and pluzzly.

And well, sorry man.

(06-12-2012, 03:38 PM)Goemar Wrote: I find that kinda funny coming from some one who worked on Skull Girls sprites...

And like I said man, I'm just too laid back. It's not like it's a non-issue, it's just too big to point at one game and shout about it.

What? What are we supposed to do then? When there's an issue you should probably complain about the issue so that the issue maybe stops being an issue

Btw that first comment made me laugh a lot. I don't know tyvon's personal reasons for doing those sprites beyond money and his love for fighting games

but I've seen him and his friends criticize those designs on multiple occasions. Don't even give him flack about something you don't even know about. Nice out-there random insult though, it didn't make you look like a douche at all

(06-12-2012, 03:38 PM)Goemar Wrote: I find that kinda funny coming from some one who worked on Skull Girls sprites...

holy shit you're really funny with the passive-aggressive joke about literally my first pixel art job ever, which i had four years ago, when i didn't actually understand what sexism actually was. i'm really laughing with you about that joke and not getting pissed off at you for basically insulting my profession

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(06-12-2012, 03:46 PM)Goemar Wrote: Tomb Raider was more explorey and pluzzly.

didn't you just say a little while back that we shouldn't judge a game by a few quotes

why are you judging it by trailers that don't even show more than 1 minute of gameplay that isn't shitty QTE/on rail events where Lara moans a lot and gets hit by every single thing she sees

Ey yo guys
I don't want this thread to devolve into sexism argument part 3678392 but the fact of the matter is that starsock and tyvon are correct here

Them being "just videogames" is irrelevant because they're still reinforcing Legitimately Terrible things on a mass scale

The fact that this is the /mainstream/ of videogames we're talking about and not just some weird subgenre makes it that much worse