Exactly.

Taller I think
and probably with the little nub that the bullet Torch posted has
also Lexou and Chris both live in France, you could probably consult them for advice in French fashion, assuming they pay attention to that sort of thing.

(10-28-2012, 05:58 PM)Vipershark Wrote:

(10-28-2012, 05:48 PM)Zac Wrote: we've known arisa for a while now
I think we can all learn to love belle just as much if we just give her a chance to sink in

Which is exactly the issue.

"This character might get better" != "This is a good character"

can anyone here give me a reason for why this character is actually good as opposed to how it might get better in the future

if you analyze any character with the prerequisites that its not a good character, of course you'll dislike it at first, even if the character is just fine.
I think that's whats happening here because all of you guys' arguments as to why belle is a poorly designed character seem to stem from the same general thought that similar looking characters coexisting in a work is a bad or unnatural thing.
If it were two human characters who were only differentiated by hair and color you'd be fine with it.
I know that for a fact, viper and angie. you dumby otakus

Uh
No.

The whole shadow the hedgehog/wario/crappy blue luigi thing has already been discussed.

We're not pointing out that there are similar-looking characters, we're pointing out that one has a good design and the other doesn't and as such is too similar.

Where did we say anything about having prerequisites for it being a bad character? That's just stupid.

Just give her a hat or something

like a yellow Mario cap

make it seem like she truly believes she's the character, and thus she must cosplay as a previous hero to remind everyone that she is indeed supposed to be a hero


idk

they are a bit too much a like Facially personally, thats the only thing i would change in the design,

Nekos drawings could work

But you guys forget that even if the two characters are similar, theres still the personality thats different

(10-28-2012, 06:45 PM)Zac Wrote: If it were two human characters who were only differentiated by hair and color you'd be fine with it.
I know that for a fact, viper and angie. you dumby otakus

Okay well first of all I would probably not call them "good designs"

I like anime but that doesn't mean I think it always has good character design. I can like it and still recognize its flaws. (and I'm not an otaku I'm not vipershark jeeeessh)

(10-28-2012, 06:45 PM)Zac Wrote: if you analyze any character with the prerequisites that its not a good character, of course you'll dislike it at first, even if the character is just fine.

Um
First impressions are kind of important in the art world. And besides that, designs should at least give you a hint towards -something- about the character. This design hints me toward "NPC" which is not what it's supposed to do at all. This isn't about "prerequisites" this is just how character design works. "Just fine" is kind of sucky standards for a character of apparently elevated importance. It's not "just fine" for the role.

(10-28-2012, 06:45 PM)Zac Wrote: I think that's whats happening here because all of you guys' arguments as to why belle is a poorly designed character seem to stem from the same general thought that similar looking characters coexisting in a work is a bad or unnatural thing.

Did you even read?? Because I said it was okay AS LONG AS THEY HAD SOMETHING CHARACTERISTIC ABOUT THEM. So that they're not,

sorry to say it but boring. I cannot connect with a character I find boring. I would love to not have to throw around words like this but people keep asking me to justify something that should be OBVIOUS.

Guys, COME ON.
What's with all the buttpats?! Nobody in here has even said that Belle's design was good, just that it was "acceptable" or "it might get better" at best. WHY EVEN ARGUE THAT?

You can argue that my way wouldn't make it better, but nobody has done that. You can argue that it's good the way it is, but nobody has done that.

Okay, so we shouldn't try my suggestions that would apparently make it better (since nobody has said otherwise!), when quite a few people people have expressed that it seems inadequate, just because some people think it's sort of adequate maybe? When half the board doesn't like something and offers a solution, the other half of the board has to defend it? It's okay to say you disagree and that you like it, but nobody's even saying that. Everyone's saying that it's okay and nobody has to actually try to fix it DESPITE PEOPLE NOT LIKING IT. I was under the impression that when people don't like something, especially when a significant amount of the board doesn't, you try to fix it. You guys are arguing a lazy man's argument that serves to let people make mediocre designs for the sake of keeping people from having to do extra effort or from having their feelings hurt. It's just stupid and goes against the purpose of the site.

I don't get what you're trying to accomplish. At all.

Wow wow wow wow what the actual fuck, guys

I thought this was a place for discussion, not for throwing insults at each other, jeez. All I said was to decide between tall and short, and what do I get? Why the tension, everyone?

I am going to stand up here and say that starsock is right here, sprites are here to be judged and I will accept and take the criticisms into account. I just clearly stated that since the design isn't 100% mine, I can't simply go and change everything without a notice. So could you all please be calm and stop shitting all over this topic, please?

Additionally, when dragonboy and I designed her, it wasn't supposed to be a "groundbreaking" or "innovative" character; just an alternate Arisa of sorts, with the same objective (to save tSR). Maybe that was a bad design move, and looking back, I agree. Though, I think it's important to note that it was mainly to poke fun at the fact that some famous characters are loosely based upon a base character. This, being a joke game project, would be fitting. A random doppelgänger of sorts that looks like you and wants to be better than you.

I will take all the criticism into consideration, though, and work on a better design, if dragonboy lets me. I just wanted to add that, and the fact that she is not completely evil either; she takes good and bad actions like anyone else, depending on what you do.

PS: this game is not supposed to be better than any other game. It is just my point of view concerning games in general. Of course, I always strive to do my best in all my projects, but I am not here to reinvent the genre with this game, but just to poke fun at tSR, famous games and their conventions. Don't take this too seriously to the point of causing tension between you guys.

All this tension is very unecessary, you can prove a point without flooding it with sarcarsm and angry remarks.

That being said, on the matter of height, if it doesn't looks as stretched as the concept, I like the one on the right. (I would also suggest playing with the eyes a little bit, like Torch and Nicktendo said/did).

Otherwise, this shows how important is to make clear the objetive of the character in their design, that's something to take into account in the future

I personally think the character design fits just right, and it is genius
don't you see it?
a want to be protagonist not accepted by the masses, despite having all the qualities the true protagonist has
people just don't like her as much, as we've seen today
of course shes slightly inferior, or why would she resort to violence? Maybe she knows she is
her design reflects all of this potential turmoil, while still fitting cohesively within the arisaverse

by the way, character design isn't like fine art. you don't base your opinion on how the character looks (the characters looks are just a reflection of there personality). Unlike a piece of art, you get to know a character. There actions can speak for themselves. First impressions are ussually wrong anyway

and I'm not just defending the character cause gors is my bro, just to clarify
I'm defending the character because I find the design quit conducive to subtlety, and even if those kinds of ideas probably weren't in dragonboy's initial conception of the character they could easily develop during the design process.


also I do think there is a point where you should just let the character be itself, and stop tweaking it. after its conception and some development, letting the character form its own identity makes them far more human. fine tuning a character to the point of perfection with in a story is completely inhuman .

Gosh, this reminds me of the "Gaia looks too much like an X edit!" arguments (personal styles take awhile to develop, sheesh guys).

But yeah, but this whole argument just blew out of proportion, and this is supposed to be a satirical game, no? Why not go for the Wario/Mario route then? (while Arisa represents the kindness in others, the rival just needs to look more selfish) And on top of that, why not a beret to make her look like she's from a rival school eh? (we already have two bulletheads, Gilbert and Arisa, same school, so why not?)

I think this situation might just be one of the reasons TSR has a bad rep yo.

Doodles I did just to suggest a change of outfit for Belle Lebel.
I think she should be taller and thinner just to vary her from Arisa, but that's just my opinion. Please consider the outfits instead of the shape of the body in these drawings. I noticed that her outfit was a bit like Arisa's, so I decided to doodle two different clothing for her. I will upload more when I can or whenever ideas come to mind.
And some quick face expressions.

Well, setting aside what just happened, I'm gonna say: taller Belle + Mowtaku's clothing in the right image = perfect rival. I think it looks cuter than the outfit on the left. But I dunno.

I'd feel like she'd be a less believable character if she was taller
I doubt she'd have much of an ego if she stood out like that

Zac's point of view is also one that I can relate with. Usually when I create characters, I don't create them to be perfect. They all have flaws in a way or the other, and that makes the character more human. Also, in real life, there are people that are flat-out boring, or without any trait that makes them stand out, unless you convive with them.

I am not ignoring any criticism given until now nor using that argument to avoid having to redraw her, and will change her design whenever I see fit, with dragonboy's consent. I'm just agreeing with what Zac said, and character development is not a thing that is set in stone. It changes with time to better suit the more solidified personality and/or to easen reproduction, and even if we didn't think about all the possibilities mentioned in this page, it doesn't invalidate them as being part of the character.

Now that the situation become stable and most seem to prefer the tall version, I'll work on it and show to dragonboy later. Thanks for the insight, everyone!