You could also say that all Mario characters are derivative. Lumas are just living Starmen. Waddlewing is a progression of the Monty Mole design. All of the Mario cast has either been there since the beginning, or are derivative of those characters. That's why they have similar aesthetic.
Later characters are always more detailed. Look at Ganondorf from Ocarina. He has TONS of color that would have been impossible to incorporate if he had been invented sooner. Look at Captain Olimar. Look at later Kirby characters (Not counting Epic Yarn) vs early ones (Return to Dream Land, in particular).

And maybe you're right. Later Pokemon characters, because of the lift on color and detail, don't match up in design to earlier ones. Looking at a Mario character or a Kirby character, you can tell what series they come from. With Pokemon, they broke from the mold and haven't looked back.

(01-17-2013, 12:34 AM)RokuGurin Wrote: It's not that you shouldn't have an opinion. But what's wrong with the designs being more intricate? I've just never heard a complaint against something like this before. I usually hear complaints about the designs "sucking" or being "bad ideas", not that they're complex.

So would you rather have Pokemon continue to be stylized animals with extra features, like Tauros? I mean there are still Pokemon in later generations that have simple designs (Like Stantler, Sealeo and Ducklett). But Game Freak mixes that in with Pokemon that are extravagant in how they look.

Lemme put it this way. Which would you prefer? A bland watery soup or a soup with spices and stock in it?

Again I'm not against you having an opinion; it's just the subject of your opinion that befuddles me.

See, I don't see the "intricacy" of the modern designs. I see clutter. Too many spices can ruin a good soup. You have to know how to cook.

Also, was telling me to hush because my opinion befuddles you really any different from being against my opinion? You basically told me to shut up because... you were befuddled?

In response to style change: It's possible the advancement of hardware contributed to it, yeah. That doesn't mean it was a necessary change, though. I think it also has to do with how things have progressed as far as art in general, though. The early Pokemon were very clear and clean and light like Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. The later designs are more claustrophobic feeling and heavily detailed, like other monster shows which became prevalent after the rise of Pokemon.

Also: I know there are still some more simple Pokemon, and I typically like those Pokemon. I guess a lot of people dislike Litwick, but his whole line is pretty cool IMO. In general, though, there seems to be what is, in my opinion, an over-abundance of bells and whistles.

Oh, while I'm thinking about it: someone earlier mentioned animals with details and nobody complaining about it. Cats shouldn't have forehead whiskers. They look dumb. But I can't really complain to evolution.

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(01-17-2013, 01:30 AM)Tonberry2k Wrote: And maybe right. Later Pokemon characters, because of the lift on color and detail, don't match up in design to earlier ones. Looking at a Mario character or a Kirby character, you can tell what series they come from. With Pokemon, they broke from the mold and haven't looked back.

This. It's almost like style-clash in a fan game.

(01-17-2013, 01:30 AM)Kriven Wrote: Also, was telling me to hush because my opinion befuddles you really any different from being against my opinion? You basically told me to shut up because... you were befuddled?

Actually it was your complaining.

(01-17-2013, 01:30 AM)Kriven Wrote: In response to style change: It's possible the advancement of hardware contributed to it, yeah. That doesn't mean it was a necessary change, though. I think it also has to do with how things have progressed as far as art in general, though. The early Pokemon were very clear and clean and light like Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. The later designs are more claustrophobic feeling and heavily detailed, like other monster shows which became prevalent after the rise of Pokemon.

I will agree that compared to previous generations, most of the Pokempn designs now seem out-of-place. But again, the generations have mixed simple and complex designs, and I think both should be appreciated.

(01-17-2013, 02:03 AM)RokuGurin Wrote: Actually it was your complaining.

lolsorry, I don't like the new ones. I'm allowed to talk about why I don't like them. I guess you'll just have to deal with what you don't like.

(01-17-2013, 02:03 AM)RokuGurin Wrote: I will agree that compared to previous generations, most of the Pokempn designs now seem out-of-place. But again, the generations have mixed simple and complex designs, and I think both should be appreciated.

And they are, just not by me.

(01-17-2013, 12:34 AM)RokuGurin Wrote: Lemme put it this way. Which would you prefer? A bland watery soup or a soup with spices and stock in it?

Personally I prefer it with just the stock

Which I guess actually explains my general opinion of Pokemon, at least in terms of design. I don't mind too many details, I love Klang (and Klinklang) and it's pretty detailed, but not with too many spices. But I also like Geodude, and it's pretty simple, although the shape and uniqueness keeps it from being watery.
I think it also depends on the flavour of the soup. Don't put chicken stock in a non-chickeny soup (if that makes sense). That is, don't put unnecessary details on a Pokemon that doesn't need them. Klang and Klinklang need their detail, because they're a bunch of gears working mechanically. Geodude doesn't, it's basically a floating rock with arms. I may be wrong (and sorry if I am) but Kriven's main annoyance may be that nowadays there are Pokemon that seem to have extra details that would have looked just as good or better without them, and the fact that they're there makes them look cluttered.
It'll work for some people, sure, but others just don't like chicken stock in their beef soup. Or at least not too much.

I dunno though. I'm just speaking my mind right now, that soup thing got me thinking

(01-17-2013, 03:19 AM)puggsoy Wrote: I may be wrong (and sorry if I am) but Kriven's main annoyance may be that nowadays there are Pokemon that seem to have extra details that would have looked just as good or better without them, and the fact that they're there makes them look cluttered.

This exactly. Thank you.

Indeed, look at how detailed Rhyhorn is and yet no one complains. With rocky creatures such details are to be expected.

The reason why the spikes at the end of Pachirisu tail looks strange is because they come out of nowhere. The tail is entirely smooth round and fluffy until those spikes poke out. It ruins the natural flow. Unlike Pikachu's tail which has a consistent zigzag.

That's true but as mentioned before, spikes are often associated with electticity and rough fur, etc. and Pachirisu has the former so I don't think it's too out of place, but y'know it's all in how you feel. I don't care really, and I don't think everyone should care this much either, the back and forth bickering about patterns and soup is kinda silly.

Silly, but fun. Personally I like seeing everybody's opinions and why they agree/disagree. Plus soup metaphors a great.

As for Pachirisu's spikes, the thing is that while is makes sense, it looks out of place compared to the rest of the design, in particular on its tail since the rest of it is round and smooth. If Pikachu had spikes on its arms it wouldn't look too nice either, even though it makes sense.

But, as you said, it all does depend on how you feel about it. At this point though, we're just trying to explain our opinions, rather than make people agree or prove it as a fact.

To each their own.

I just don't see the point of complaining about designs that are already out there, but that's just me. And while we're on the topic, I never minded Pachirisu's design. I didn't really regard the spiked tail as out of place. Somehow it fits with it being an electric type.

Then there are cases like the Gardevoir line. Oh yeah, the fanart it gets says A-LOT with the change of style. As the platform got better, there were new design oppertunities to experiment. It would be a swing and a miss, kinda like a infinite game of baseball. There would be home-runs like said line, or a strike like certain other pokemon I know. It's the oppisite situation of the trainers, where the gym leaders and player only seems to stand out until the crystal version's bonus storyline in Gen II. The Rival.. not so much, as he's only there to halt you on your quest, along with the villain group Team Rocket for Gen I's storyline.

I just don't get why they need to keep making more Pokemon, honestly. I'm attached to the original 151 (and, to an extent, Gen II as well) because when those games came out, I was a kid, and I played them, and I got attached to the little critters I captured.

Less so in new generations, where there are 43687u46987456345 pokemon and a national dex and ugh no please give me simplicity and clarity againnnn. This is also part of why I like B/W as much as I do, because there are these NEW ADORABLE THINGS and there are ONLY THIS MANY OF THEM AT ONCE although yes I know you get the national dex at some point but shh the first wild pokemon i ran into was a puppy.

that said, there are always some good designs and some god-awful designs. (Who thought a pokemon based on rubbish was a good idea oh my god)

(the announcement of a fennec fox fire starter made me squeal like a little kid though not going to lie)

(01-17-2013, 05:54 PM)Emma Wrote: that said, there are always some good designs and some god-awful designs. (Who thought a pokemon based on rubbish was a good idea oh my god)

Here we go. The 149,504,247th complaint about Trubbish....

Again, I don't see the point of whining about it. I mean hey it's more creative than a pile of sludge.

That evolves into a bigger pile of sludge.

But Grimer and Trubbish are still cute in spite of what they are.

Quote:I just don't get why they need to keep making more Pokemon, honestly.

You say that, yet state that you squealed over Fennekin. If Game Freak had stopped making more Pokemon, we wouldn't have this new fox Pokemon.

This is how trubbish came to be. It's basically a Zombiechu. Another mutation triggered by.. Dramatic pause.. MAAAN! The same plot device used for Gen 5.

In seriousness I'm getting annoyed by the trubbish bashing myself. If you want serious skullbashing, pit a Charizard against a Golem in multi, and see how fun it is.

Ok, Roku, as much as I don't agree with them at all on this, anyone voicing their opinion shouldn't exactly be met with a response like "whining about it". People don't like it, but is it pointless to discuss why they don't? It helps understanding other viewpoints, enchance your own (by arguing) or even end up seeing that they're [your points] weren't that solid. There are thousands of reasons as to why people SHOULD complain about finished designs.

Honestly, your interventions are more annoying than the complaints themselves, no offense.