It's fine, Drshnaps. Since it seems like this topic is talking more about the logic and oddities of the Mushroom Kingdom than whether Mario's a good guy or not, would it hurt to change the name of the topic to reflect this?

Anyway, I never noticed that before. It seems like transformations go hand to hand with magic in the Mario series than nearly any other game series. In fact, if you look at the original anime, Bowser has the power to change into all sorts of things (i.e. Scarecrow, Teddy Bear), while the prince is in the form of a dog. In short, they make it seem like the most powerful and important force in the Mushroom World (I would say "Plit," but after figuring out the meaning of the word a long time ago, I no longer use it).

If that's the kind of logic that is in play here, do you think that some creatures and characters, such as Duplighosts and Doopliss, are arguably the most powerful beings in the Mario universe?

No. Assuming what they're doing is an actual transformation and not just an illusion, their power is still limited to being used on themselves. The most powerful beings would be the ones capable of using the magic on others.

Ah! That's a good point!

Well, if I remember correctly, Doopliss changed most of the populous of Twilight Town (for clarification in case a Kingdom Hearts fangirl is reading, the Paper Mario version) into pigs and did that little shadow trick to Mario. I guess that means Doopliss would fall under the extremely powerful banner, right?

Considering Doopliss is a repeated boss, that makes sense. But yeah when you think about transformations are no big deal in this series and are always temporary/ easily reversible.

Then again the same goes for "death" or what often seems like death. Bowser has "died" many times and found a way back from the dead. It has also been shown that Bowser in Dry Bones form is reversible, making it possible that all Dry Bones are able to become ordinary Koopas again.

It seems you have to do quite a bit to permanently kill someone in Mario's world, and even then they can always come back as a ghost.

This sort of puts a damper on the "Mario's a cold-blooded murdered" argument.

I still consider Mario a good guy. Sure he may or may haven't been a dingus back in the early 80s, but you have to consider that that wasn't truly Mario. Jumpman was just a prototype character with not much of a personality until the NES games came along.

Not to mention, where would the cartoons fit into the equation?

Here is my opinion on the morality of Mario:

The games always start with the princess (or another important political figure, in the case of the sprixie princess or the subcon fairies) being captured by another superpower, usually Bowser and his army. This is effectively an ACT OF WAR. It is therefore no fairer to accuse Mario of crimes of terrorism than it is to blame our own troops fighting and killing opposing soldiers, who are also trying to kill them.

And yes, the Mario enemies are in fact trying to kill him. Even though many of them may seem completely ineffective, the fact is even the most worthless of them would take the chance to gut him if Mario stood around doing nothing.

And it's not like Mario kills indiscriminately either. We have seen in just about all the RPGs that there are plenty of good or neutral "enemy-type" characters around that he does not attempt to harm. He clearly knows how to distinct between good and evil and not just kill everyone just because they are of a particular species. Sure, you don't see such scenes in most of the platformer games but that is mostly just because such scenes just don't suit the genre; rather in these cases such scenes are just assumed to be happening between the scenes.

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However, if you really want to point fingers at someone with ambiguous ethics in the Mario universe, I'd suggest taking a good look at E. Gadd. In the latest Luigi's Mansion game, the plot revolves around Gadd sending Luigi to find the pieces of a moon-shaped gem which is used to make the ghosts that reside in Evershade Valley to act "good". Sure, it sounds nice to have nice ghosts instead of jerks and pranksters, however don't overlook the fact that this is effectively BRAINWASHING. This is a straight up Clockwork Orange scenario we're talking about here. Are the ghosts really bad guys in this game? With the exception of the boos, it seems to me like they're just rebelling against an amoral practice.

And that's not even Gadd's first offense. Remember in Mario Sunshine, Baby Bowser is terrorizing Delfino Island with a "magic" paintbrush that the mad scientist reportedly GAVE to him. And while he may have technically created the device that saves the day, keep in mind that Gadd was not present to actually give FLUDD to Mario, nor is there any indication that it was even meant for him, or what purpose it was meant to serve on the island in the first place.

You could say he's a neutral party if you really want, but it seems more to me that he just has really lax morals; caring too much about his work and too little about who gets hurt in the process. Whatta jerk!

I forget where, but I read that E. Gadd gave the paintbrush to Bowser Jr. while the Koopaling was in disguise as Shadow Mario, so Gadd assumed he was giving Mario the brush.

That just sounds like theory. I've played the game more times than I can count and I can tell you that definitely did not come up in the game at all. And from what I can tell, the paintbrush is what actually gives him the ability to take on the Shadow Mario form. That is the reason that the Shadow Mario form is vulnerable to FLUDD's water.

It certainly gets deeper now that you brought up Gadd, Drshnaps. I never thought too deeply about the guy, but now I'm thinking there's something funny about that guy. If the guy behind Game Theories were to take a look at this topic, he would certainly question the professor as much as you have, Drshnaps.

While we're on the subject, didn't he used to trap ghosts in paintings? If what Drshnaps is saying is true about the ghosts and the Dark Moon, then I think trapping ghosts in paintings is up there with that.

I've a bit of a counter point to the dark moon being E.Gadds brain washing tool.
The main point is... E.Gadd never built it. As far as I know, it was a natural phenominon.

It's also debatable if its full brainwashing, instead of some sort of ghost-version of brain altering medication. You know, like anti-depressants and the like. It looked as if a LOT of the ghosts retained a lot of thier personally both with and without the dark moon. Only difference was that they became more maliciously playful without the moon... sounds more like the moon increases impulse control of ghosts to me.

Of course, polterpup seems completely unaffected by the moon one way or the other.

(11-05-2013, 06:09 AM)Drshnaps Wrote: That just sounds like theory. I've played the game more times than I can count and I can tell you that definitely did not come up in the game at all. And from what I can tell, the paintbrush is what actually gives him the ability to take on the Shadow Mario form. That is the reason that the Shadow Mario form is vulnerable to FLUDD's water.

Shadow Mario comes from Jr's mask, evidenced by the crudely drawn Mario face on it and how he always puts it on to transform.

i do suggest that you copy paste your posts here and send em to the gametheory channel though drshnaps

No thanks, I don't really care for them. Feel free to do it yourself though.

(11-05-2013, 04:45 PM)Kriven Wrote: Shadow Mario comes from Jr's mask, evidenced by the crudely drawn Mario face on it and how he always puts it on to transform.

But he still wears that in later games without transforming. I think the mask is just meant to mock Mario more than anything. Or maybe he needs both that AND the brush to transform and that's why it doesn't work later?

Well in later games the mask actually shows off a crudely drawn fang face rather than the blue Mario face. However, it does nothing magic either, so one could still argue its the brush that transforms him, but it still works to counter that same theory at the same time.

I'm sure Miyamoto knows, and he's sitting in his ivory tower laughing at our theoretical squalor.

My assumption was always that Shadow Mario's watery looking body was made out of the same sort of goo that the brush creates, and that is the reason he's vulnerable to FLUDD's spray.