For fuck's sake, Kriven.

(01-18-2014, 05:36 AM)Vipershark Wrote: What do you propose we do, then? Both Gorsal and I replied to that on the last page.

(01-17-2014, 10:16 PM)Vipershark Wrote: The problem isn't "it's a spriting forum", it's "everyone here is either apathetic and/or lazy and/or just doesn't have time."

(01-17-2014, 04:51 PM)Vipershark Wrote: Well, it's not like anyone here (specifically outside of tMR) can make 3D models (or else there'd be activity in the SHE WANTS THE 3D thread) or sound effects or textures, so uh...
I guess we're still going with the same thing we've been going with for a decade?

(01-17-2014, 05:03 PM)Gors Wrote: care to show your new 3D models then?


or your new music album?


Like Vipershark said, literally no one here makes things other than spriting tbh. And those who know music or modelling literally doesn't care about teaching like we do with sprites. This is why they aren't big.

I did the She wants the 3D thread so I could experiment and learn things with the modellers. Everything I learned here was by myself.

I'm all for expanding things and adding in programming and modeling (like I said; plans in the pipeline!!!) but these things take time.
So in the meantime, what do you propose we do when almost nobody on the site does these things?

How many times does this need to be repeated within two pages?
We have places for those things already (the Creativity forum currently covers both, also tMR), and we have plans to expand things to better incorporate them in the future. However, at the current point in time, only a very small fraction of our userbase actually does any of these things (as in like less than 10 each NOT COUNTING TMR FOR MODELS).

That being said, WHAT IS YOUR POINT? You keep repeating "okay but too much spriting" when we've explained why several times. Why are you still talking about it?

(01-21-2014, 08:56 PM)Kriven Wrote:

(01-21-2014, 05:06 PM)Kirbyfan Wrote: Anything I'm missing/wrong about?

The excessive emphasis on sprites.

you say this but you just compared tsr to a sprite-based website that hosts almost exclusively sprite recolors (which are REALLY easy to get into) :

(01-19-2014, 05:19 AM)Kriven Wrote: Honestly, the primary differences in terms of projects is standards.

MFGG has low standards, and they get shit done.
TSR has impossible standards and bicker the Smash project into the ground about the placement of a single pixel.

having a standard isn't why people don't sprite or finish projects

this being a spriting-based website (which it kind of isn't exclusively a spriting website anymore) is potentially why spriting is most of what gets done here, because most of the people who are still around are oldfriends, but the entry level of other activities (modeling, music, sfx, whatever) also contributes to that. finding tutorials for getting into any of those is pretty hard if you're a beginner; while spriting has a Lot Of Guides and spells things out for you, excluding things such as anatomy or etc

well it's not just finding tutorials for pixeling (which there kinda actually isn't that many, and how many newbies actually read any of them anyways?)

but the entry level for spriting is really low
like, you have a computer? it probably already has a low-level art program like paint. grab the pencil tool from only about 10 other tools and tadah! that's all you need to start pixeling!
other artforms often require a lot more work just to get started. for example, 3d modeling programs tend to have super-bloated unintuitive menus and tons of tools, many of which are actually important to producing decent models and then uv mapping slaughters what's left






I forgot what my point was.

@kriven, I just feel like saying what you're talking about is kind of like going onto a gun forum and telling them they need to give up their guns lol

You are all fucking funny.

You will never attract non-spriters if all of your emphasis and site decisions are based on sprites, is my point. You all seem unwilling to understand that because "But everyone sprites."

But I mean, there's a fundamental difference between having sprite projects and insistinng that everything be for the betterment of pixlekind.
Again, I'm talking about tone and mentality over physical effect. KirbyFan's entire post was about "Proving that sprites are still relevant", which isn't really the point.

It's fine if all you want to do is sprites, go back to being a sprite forum. But right now it's not and by thrusting the word "sprite" into every facet of an idea, you are:

A: Prohibiting non-spriters from participating in projects (like comics).
B: Entrenching the idea that this is a spriting website and alienating non-spriters.

It's all terminology and wording and emphasis that needs to change. Not the spriting.

Quote:Making sure I'm on the same page as everyone else, so we can continue productively:
I'm pretty sure that the way to breathe life into tSR (or VGR or whatever) and spritework as a whole, as with any other thing, is to introduce it to popular mediums of art/entertainment. More and more games and videos are moving past sprite-oriented graphics. This is happening to the point where even higher-res spritework is considered "nostalgic". So all we have to do (said lightly) is make the sprite-oriented contents of this forum relatable to a newer audience. Whatever people are used to, we would have to show that it can be done at an equal/higher caliber with sprites instead of 3D or vector-based modeling.

That plan is very good for a site that wants to remain exclusively a spriting website.
Not very good for one that intends on attracting non-spriting blood.

You all seem to be hung up on what the current userbase is capable of as opposed to bringing in new members.

Rhyme: I didn't make that comparison, I elaborated on it. Let's not put words in my mouth.

Quote:I just feel like saying what you're talking about is kind of like going onto a gun forum and telling them they need to give up their guns lol

You'd be right if this were still a spriting forum.

(01-22-2014, 07:28 AM)Kriven Wrote: You will never attract non-spriters if all of your emphasis and site decisions are based on sprites, is my point. You all seem unwilling to understand that because "But everyone sprites."

You seem to be missing the parts of my posts where I repeatedly said that those things are coming in the future but aren't ready yet, and then immediately followed them up by saying the reason things are still primarily spriting focused is because even though the site is now about more than sprites, sprites are still its main function since that's what most of the userbase does and that's what we have the most support for.

Because I definitely said that at least three or four times already.

You seem to be missing the parts of my posts where I'm talking more about a general attitude (such as insisting that a future comic section should be all sprites) than tangible assets.

Because that's where the line kind of appeared, for me.

Comics, animations and the like had been brought up and at that point it became a pseudo-flame war about whether sprite comics/animations are any good at all. But... those things aren't restricted to sprites, and they should be looked at that way.

Not to mention all the "Hoorah! Sprites are as powerful as other mediums!" and the "We need to take a deep look into the meaning of sprites to revitalize our site."

Quote:sprites are still its main function since that's what most of the userbase does and that's what we have the most support for.

And that's just tradition-for-tradition nonsense.

@Kriven
I mean, I like spriting. I know that's why I came to these forums, and the place used to be called The Spriter's Resource. Denying the fact that spriting is a big part of these forums is akin to denying that a former gun-site, now a weapons site with a community heavily focused on guns, is focused on guns.
(My comma use in that could probably use work, so run through it once again if the first time didn't make sense =P)

What I was saying, if you weren't spending time bolding specific portions of it, is that if this site wants to become flourishing with fields full of rampant and excited visitors, than we need to make the forum's focus, spriting (and yes that is, to my understanding, still the focus) appealing to newcomers.


I haven't mentioned anything about rejecting other art forms and material, and nobody else has either. But the moment, this place is still heavily focused on sprites. As long as that remains true, than for this place to attract others and retain them the sprite-oriented material on this site must be inviting and engaging, attributes than the art form has begun to lose, at least on this site.

So I'm not sure what general attitude you are mentioning, as I doubt any individual here has a strong hatred for anything non-bitmap. If you think so, ask around.

Now if I'm understanding right, what you're saying, Kriven, is Spriter's Resource should basically become a Kongregate that not only does games, but webcomics, animations and 3D modelling, on top of being a site that hosts sprites ripped from games.

That sounds pretty stressful server wise, but also would lose the site's main focus. I'm not saying attention shouldn't be given to these other aspects of creativity, but on the main site? Perhaps a sub board on the forums for sure, if it doesn't already exist, but unless I'm mistaken, the primary purpose of Spriter's Resource is for Odd Joe and Random Sue to locate any spritesheets he or she needs for whatever, download them, and use them.

(01-22-2014, 07:01 PM)Kriven Wrote: You seem to be missing the parts of my posts where I'm talking more about a general attitude (such as insisting that a future comic section should be all sprites) than tangible assets.

Because that's where the line kind of appeared, for me.

Comics, animations and the like had been brought up and at that point it became a pseudo-flame war about whether sprite comics/animations are any good at all. But... those things aren't restricted to sprites, and they should be looked at that way.

Not to mention all the "Hoorah! Sprites are as powerful as other mediums!" and the "We need to take a deep look into the meaning of sprites to revitalize our site."

Who the heck (on the staff) said anything about that?

Gorsal and I have both said several times that we're welcoming of things that aren't sprite oriented. The reason why the part about comics went to a discussion about sprite comics was simple: who here actually does regular comics? It had nothing to to with PIXEL SUPERIORITY or SPRITING ORIGINALITY or anything dumb like that; it was for the plain and simple reason that there's a very likely chance that if anyone WERE to actually make a comic, it would be a sprite comic. And by very likely I mean like 99% because come on, dude.

Some other members might have their opinions about that kind of thing but if you've been paying attention at all, none of us on the staff (aka the final decision makers) have said anything of the sort.

(not to mention that it's pretty much been established that we're (at least me and gorsal) against comics (of any sort) being anywhere outside of the creativity section)

Quote:

Quote:sprites are still its main function since that's what most of the userbase does and that's what we have the most support for.

And that's just tradition-for-tradition nonsense.

How is it tradition-for-tradition when in that EXACT SAME SENTENCE I specified that functions other than spriting are coming, yet are currently unavailable?

The site is still spriting-focused because we have the infrastructure, member base, and resources to cover such things because they've been here the entire time. At this point in time, we don't exactly have that for other subjects.

I mean, if you want other sections, feel free to start putting together information, tutorials, project threads, support, and advertising and begin establishing a member base that does those things by yourself and I'm sure Dazz would be happy to accommodate you once you've got all of these things running smoothly.

But you're not going to do that, so instead of complaining about there being too much discussion of sprites, how about you instead think of a way for us to fix the site we've currently got (a spriting site) and once that's working well, expand onto other things?

We could start throwing in a buttload of new sections about programming and modelling and comics and stuff right now but it wouldn't change the fact that the forum is dying. It'd be the same old stuff, just with a bunch of empty new sections.

In other words, either offer something that actually helps us, or shut up and wait because we're working on it.

I'm down for the Artist's Alley.

Would it be divided into different sub-sub-forums, so one for hand-drawn/painted, one for digital, one for photography/filmography, etc...?

And, structure-wise, would any sprite sub-forums be included in it?
I think, at least for the time being, it might be good to put some of the sprite stuff inside of this theoretical sub-forum, to get a little more traffic/whatever.

Note: this is forward, very-hypothetical thinking, I know
Also, I'm not sure where the post I'm responding to is. Disregard if this is total nonsense, but I think it was Kosheh's post or something.

(01-22-2014, 10:22 PM)Kirbyfan Wrote: I'm down for the Artist's Alley.

Would it be divided into different sub-sub-forums, so one for hand-drawn/painted, one for digital, one for photography/filmography, etc...?

And, structure-wise, would any sprite sub-forums be included in it?
I think, at least for the time being, it might be good to put some of the sprite stuff inside of this theoretical sub-forum, to get a little more traffic/whatever.

Note: this is forward, very-hypothetical thinking, I know
Also, I'm not sure where the post I'm responding to is. Disregard if this is total nonsense, but I think it was Kosheh's post or something.

oops, i deleted my post because it was irrelvant

anyway, i suggested an artist's alley, where TSR regulars who create things in varying media (besides pixelart) showcase their art and can sell prints etc. through a digital storefront.


to respond to kirbyfan, i'm pretty sure if someone wanted to they could sell pixelart, too via the storefront...but it'd be like, 6x blown-up in a digital print. :/

(01-22-2014, 09:19 PM)Vipershark Wrote: Who the heck (on the staff) said anything about that?

Who the heck said anything about the staff?

Quote:We could start throwing in a buttload of new sections about programming and modelling and comics and stuff right now but it wouldn't change the fact that the forum is dying. It'd be the same old stuff, just with a bunch of empty new sections.

I didn't suggest sections other than an interview section for events with people who actually make games. I took the suggestions that already existed and pointed out a problem.

Quote:how about you instead think of a way for us to fix the site we've currently got (a spriting site)

I have (see above).
And again, it's not a spriting site anymore. It doesn't really matter what "the staff" insist on--the rebranding has already happened.

Also in regards to "the staff": nobody ever specifically mentioned or attacked you. Except for that one time earlier, when "the staff" crept into play as a center point again somehow.

Quote:I mean, if you want other sections

I actually don't because that's not the issue with the site. Other people had other section ideas, and I was pointing out the issue with them and why they would not invigorate activity.

The issue with the site is its userbase and the underlying attitudes it holds. A cultural shift has to occurr if more activity is desired. Projects don't matter, sections don't matter, even events don't matter. People matter, what people say matters, how people say it matters. What people think matters.

There is something about the community as a culture that breeds... silence, in some respects. But don't worry, it's not just tSR that is like this, I've seen it happening to all kinds of older forums, and new ones just never get off the ground. The Internet forum is leaving, and the attitudes fostered by those who still inhabit them drive away any new members.

If you look at the conversations here (not just this one, I won't even use this thread as an example) you have two major kinds: you have threads where each person makes a single post of about one line which amounts to "this is cool" or "this isn't cool" or you have arguments that erupt from conflicting opinions. It doesn't really matter what the original topic is... all someone has to do is say: "I like this game", and someone who dislikes that game pretty much just insults the other user. And it carries on from there.

I've seen only a few threads where this doesn't happen, most of which are in the real life section. There's really a mixed-bag of conversations in the art sections. The community as a whole has this tendancy of ganging up on people they disagree with or who aren't very good at something, and that ties back to the "be frank" teaching philosophy held by a lot of the elite spriters.

That attitude is really good at fostering a god-tier artistic gallery. It isn't so great for a lively community.

tl;dr: the problem with the site isn't what it offers, it's the people who use it.

Oh, I don't have any friends here so I'm not part of it, but I wonder how much conversation fodder is being directed into instant messaging instead of board discussion.

Aren't you two basically saying two parts of the same thing?

Basically: We need people doing other stuff to attract people doing the same other stuff.

TSR attracts spriters because it has spriters. It doesn't attract non-spriters because there's not much of a non-spriter community here.

It will attract non-spriters once other areas take root.

Things like that take time. I mean most of those that would find the other areas of "VGR" still only find it due to the sprites... because TSR is more known for it.

VGR is still a "small" sort of no-name/fledgingly site in other areas. Once it HAS a giant library of sounds/models/etc and people start to notice it... we'll see more of those.

Curiously: would it be possible to do a ScrewAttack sort of thing with user-submitted articles? Articles go through the usual vetting process before being accepted?

I know at one point the pseudo-blog was attempted, but I don't see it now. It might be a good way to encompass the idea of VGR.

@Kriven
That sounds like a good idea on multiple accounts.

Just because I'm not familiar with ScrewAttack, I need to ask: would there be a focus/topic to all of the articles?


@Kosheh
I mean, I'm down for some original, unique pixel art on my wall. :p (It'd have to be some high-grade stuff) Anyway, what you've said makes sense. It doesn't really have a place in the Artist's Alley.