On the Kirby topic and today's picture, of all the Kirby enemies, they had to put in TAC, one of the more obnoxious ones. I suppose it's an useful enemy conceptually since the mode revolves around collecting things, but maaan...

Don't get me wrong though, I am glad Smash Run is bringing all these assorted enemies together. I wonder what other modes can be expected...

I for one do not like the way Smash Run is looking. I don't know why, it just doesn't appeal to me.

(04-17-2014, 08:14 PM)Omega Wrote: lets talk about how Bandana Dee should be playable because he is the coolest Kirby character next to Dedede.

seconded. heres me hoping that he controls like he did in kirby rtd.

also

(04-17-2014, 05:39 PM)Drshnaps Wrote: I've been trying to find an image that might give that impression but in all the shots I can find it just looks like an average girl's behind to me.

I fully understand why people want Bandana Dee, but obviously Marx is the best choice for a Kirby rep (and by obviously the best choice I mean I think it would be cool, and not literally the best choice)

marx has only been in 2 (not counting remakes) kirby games whereas bandana dee has been in 4. not that this has to do with anything, but bandana dee is more recognized than marx. also being a waddle dee, it gives him more opportunities for different attacks in his moveset

I'm fully aware, which is why I included a small disclaimer.

But does Bandana Dee shoot lasers and or could fight on a bouncy ball? I don't think so

(04-17-2014, 07:09 AM)Ran Master 27 Wrote: But yeah, smash isn't It's really all in how you play the game. You should never limit a game down to ONE play style, or favor a select crowd when developing games. The ARE such things as casual players.

I used to bring Melee to school all the time, and people in the game room will do free for alls for the lols.
But you know, when people want to square off 1s. Of course we go tournament rules.

But that's the problem. It's either one way or the other. Either "For Fun" or "Competition" and nothing in-between. Even Sakurai is now treating it that way and it sickens me.

It's saying that having a match with Ray Guns turned on "doesn't count", it's "just for lols" and can't be competitive. Playing on a banned stage is "Just for Fun" and is not considered a "REAL" competition. That's what I don't like. To folks like you it's just Black and White.

Well I see a gradient of competitiveness. I think you CAN have a good competition with items on. I think you CAN display skill on a banned stage. I think you CAN still take a match seriously with unexpected things happening.

I find that really super annoying that it's considered "casual play" when I chose to compete with items. Like my skills and effort using said items is all worthless. Just for lols.

(04-17-2014, 08:42 AM)[MachoBot RoboSavage] Wrote: Melee players have discovered new tricks such as Wavedashing and L Canceling, two things that turned the competetive scene on it's head.

But once it's discovered then everyone starts doing it. That would be fine if only the person who discovered Wavedashing and L Canceling used it as his own unique playstyle, but no. Now everyone is doing it. Everyone is trying to exploit the playstyle for a character that is considered "the best" and not try to invent their own.

Sure in the beginning when the game is still new and fresh and people are trying new things but after a while they learn "This is how you become good as Mewtwo." or "This is how you become good as Bowser" and then that's what everyone strives for. Once this "technique" called Wavedashing was discovered, it became the norm. Now it's predictable, now you know they will be wavedashing.

Quote:It may look the same because there's only 13 moves, and not all of them are useful at every single moment.

And that's exactly why things like items or stage hazards can open up even more possibilities with matches. Why just limit your match to characters with only 13 moves?

God damn it Koopaul, you just won't let things did.

Given the usefulness and vast amount of options that wave dashing opens, there's nothing predictable about it. I may also add that it's not an integral part of every character's repertoire and that many players do actually utilize wave dashing according to their style, and many players do have a distinct playing style. Hungrybox and Mango both play a mean Jigglypuff, but their play styles are extremely different.

Quote:And that's exactly why things like items can open up even more possibilities with matches. Why just limit your match to characters with only 13 moves?

Because if items are allowed, then the moves would barely be used at all. The game would without a doubt shift to the items because the items are generally more useful than a character's move set. That would be even more stale than the 13 moves.

Small thing and essentially unrelated, but almost none says that they want to be the best with Bowser or Mewtwo. Both are extremely low tier and aren't played seriously by anyone not named Gimpyfish. Small gripe.

Quote:Well I see a gradient of competitiveness. I think you CAN have a good competition with items on. I think you CAN display skill on a banned stage. I think you CAN still take a match seriously with unexpected things happening.

Personally, I think that you're wrong. No long drawn out rebuttal because it would literally get into a lol mah opinion deal, which I really don't want to get into with you Koopaul.

(04-17-2014, 06:24 PM)E-Man Wrote: Anyway, if the parents are going to be complaining about an attracitve woman in a skintight suit that covers around 90% of her body, I would love to see them react to the moment Palutena becomes a playable character (provided the rumors are true) considering how skimpy her outfit is compared to the other female characters in the game.

Aka: Absolute Zone.

I don't know why everyone feels personally victimized if someone wants to play a game differently than them.

Like, seriously. Elitism isn't cool, sure, but saying that people aren't allowed to try to make competitive Smash a reality is like... super hypocritical, imo.

And the reason that people leave out items if they want to test their own player skill is comparable to the reason that metal bats aren't used in major league baseball (lol sports metaphors in a vidyo gaem forum? whoops). Metal bats, especially for people who know how to use them (aka pro baseball players), are so much more effective than wood bats that they'd over-centralize the game to just ripping home runs all the time. Or like, how bullshit would it seem if every person up to bat had a random chance of being able to use a metal bat over a wood one? And one team just winds up getting a bad luck of the draw and almost never gets the arbitrary advantage?

It's the same thing with using items to win. Many items are ALWAYS your better option compared to the rest of your moveset. They boil the main strategy down to "who can run and catch the latest random item drop" and erases all of the intricacies of attacking/countering/positioning/dodging and even the differences between characters (to varying degrees).

If you're not willing to look deeper into the game's core mechanics and learn how to play it without relying on random factors then no, you're not "competitive". And that's fine! And anyone says it isn't, well fuck them, they're a shitlord. You're a casual player. It's not a freaking slur, it's a way to play the game.

Quote:Elitism isn't cool, sure

Is this directed towards me? Because I have no problem with how anyone plays and that my rants usually stem from someone talking ill of general competitive Smash or how I prefer to play the game

(04-18-2014, 12:55 AM)[MachoBot RoboSavage] Wrote:

Quote:Elitism isn't cool, sure

Is this directed towards me? Because I have no problem with how anyone plays and that my rants usually stem from someone talking ill of general competitive Smash or how I prefer to play the game

Nah nah nah nah nah no no no, it was directed at members of the Smash community that take the game like WAY too seriously and insult people who don't play competitive or say, like playing Brawl more than Melee. Like, the really real douchebags. And those people should be ignored. You're fine, Macho!

(04-18-2014, 12:47 AM)Tellis Wrote: It's the same thing with using items to win. Many items are ALWAYS your better option compared to the rest of your moveset. They boil the main strategy down to "who can run and catch the latest random item drop" and erases all of the intricacies of attacking/countering/positioning/dodging and even the differences between characters (to varying degrees).

If you're not willing to look deeper into the game's core mechanics and learn how to play it without relying on random factors then no, you're not "competitive". And that's fine! And anyone says it isn't, well fuck them, they're a shitlord. You're a casual player. It's not a freaking slur, it's a way to play the game.

Have you tried to play a match with items on Low and with the OP ones off? Obviously if all items are on High and certain ones aren't removed then it would be a random mess that wouldn't involve skill at all. Obviously.

But what I'm talking about is an experience that uses items on Low setting (so they aren't always in your face) and items like Gold Hammer or Super Spicy Curry are off (because they require no skill)

I've set up matches with people I've known using my rules and we take it seriously. It's not "casual" just because it's not the rules you go by. You can be competitive with the right items on low and it works out. You've never tried it so you don't know.

I dare you to try to play a game with Koopaul's Smash Rules.

KOOPAUL'S RULES:

-Items on LOW

-Assist Trophy OFF
-Blast Box OFF
-Dragoon OFF
-Food OFF
-Golden Hammer OFF
-Heart Container OFF
-Lightning Bolt OFF
-Maxim Tomato OFF
-Pokeball OFF
-Smash Ball OFF
-Starman OFF
-Superspicy Curry OFF
-Team Healer OFF
-Timer OFF

-Following Stages are Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
Norfair
Spear Pillar
WarioWare
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
PictoChat
Hanenbow
Big Blue
Brinstar

-Stock = 5

-Time = OFF

That's what we do at my place and we consider it a real competition.

I would love too... But how?

See that's why I was hoping Sakurai would have the option for online matches between friends that a player could set up his or her own rules. Like I could set up an online Koopaul Cup Tournament using those rules.

But it seems like we only have two options. One extreme to another.

Anyway that doesn't matter right now. In the mean time, if you have a friend and a copy of Brawl, try fighting each other with those settings. You'll see how refreshing it is. There's still a competitive edge while having items and hazards. Instead of getting rid of them all together, they've been toned down to a more balanced experience.

It took Steve and I years of playing with all sorts of options and modes to find a good balance for things. But I think we got it.