The only assumption I've made is to believe the reports of the people who have played the game who say most of the characters feel genuinely the same in terms of performance as they did in Brawl, with simple variables adjusted to handle the new physics.

Oh, and everything is shinier. Ooh.

If that is true, and if it is true that Sakurai's team made everything from the ground up, then they wasted resources rebuilding something which could have been much more efficiently accomplished.

I suggested an "If/then" equation based on the information I'd received, from both you and various other sources. I did not say "This is how it all went down, guys."

(09-11-2014, 06:29 PM)Kriven Wrote: If they really rebuilt each character from the ground up, they wasted an awful lot of time and money to get performance that is pretty close to being Brawl.

That really isn't helping their case. It demonstrates a lack of resource management, honestly.

You do realize that this is a 3DS game right
Like not even the Wii U version. This is a handheld title.

(09-11-2014, 07:34 PM)Vipershark Wrote:

(09-11-2014, 06:29 PM)Kriven Wrote: If they really rebuilt each character from the ground up, they wasted an awful lot of time and money to get performance that is pretty close to being Brawl.

That really isn't helping their case. It demonstrates a lack of resource management, honestly.

You do realize that this is a 3DS game right
Like not even the Wii U version. This is a handheld title.

How does that change anything?

Are you saying that the 3DS version won't have the same physics and changes and balancing that the Wii U version will?

I'm saying it's not a simple port job like you're implying.

I could understand taking the brawl base and upscaling it for the Wii U but saying that it's a "lack of resource management" for them to do things differently on a handheld that is less powerful than the original Wii even is kind of ridiculous.

Then I sincerely am out of the loop, because all the demo and early copies report I see paint a completely opposite picture of what you said. But even so, I still think it's a valid effort to rebuild everything. You could accomplish Mario Kart 8 with the same resources as Wii's but why would they do that? It's a new game, it's a new everything. There's no reason to think they should take the easy route out when they're making a game for a system it never even debuted before. "But they could have built it on Brawl files", but what do you mean by this even? Literally the same files? Same rigging? Same animations? New models wouldn't work well with that. They definitely had to used it as reference but that's it

(09-11-2014, 07:37 PM)Vipershark Wrote: I'm saying it's not a simple port job like you're implying.

I could understand taking the brawl base and upscaling it for the Wii U but saying that it's a "lack of resource management" for them to do things differently on a handheld that is less powerful than the original Wii even is kind of ridiculous.

Developers have been making direct ports of their games available for both the Wii and the handheld since the DS. New Super Mario Bros. is the most obvious, but you also have a number of games like Sega Tennis and Sonic All-Stars Racing that use all the same programming and balancing and even visual and audio resources with greater compression to reduce the strain on the processing of the handheld system.

It's not impossible for them to work with the existing resource base to create the 3DS version of the game, and I think it's pretty clear that the 3DS and Wii U versions of the game are using the same resources. I don't even understand why you think this would be an obstacle since it's something which has been overcome for almost a decade by most developers.

(09-11-2014, 07:39 PM)Mutsukki Wrote: Then I sincerely am out of the loop, because all the demo and early copies report I see paint a completely opposite picture of what you said. But even so, I still think it's a valid effort to rebuild everything. You could accomplish Mario Kart 8 with the same resources as Wii's but why would they do that? It's a new game, it's a new everything. There's no reason to think they should take the easy route out when they're making a game for a system it never even debuted before. "But they could have built it on Brawl files", but what do you mean by this even? Literally the same files? Same rigging? Same animations? New models wouldn't work well with that. They definitely had to used it as reference but that's it

See, all of your frustration is coming from you just not hearing what I'm saying.

I'm not saying I wanted them to take the easy way out. I'm saying that if they spent all that energy to create something that could have been created by going the easy way, then they should have. If they spent all that energy and created something that is actually different, something that does not feel like what came before it, then they didn't waste the energy at all. Then they started from a blank slate and it was worth it.

(09-11-2014, 07:22 PM)Kriven Wrote:

(09-11-2014, 07:05 PM)Mutsukki Wrote: Ike, the guy who has a completely different character model, alright then. It's not about playing the same it's feeling the same. How can you compare that the change isn't the same as Melee and Brawl when you don't have the game and every report everywhere is saying that this game is definitely not Brawl. It looks very very different. Seriously you should watch some new gameplay and look at Brawl and you'll see it doesn't even look to have the same feel. Just look at freakin Mr. Game & Watch. All you're doing is assuming and assuming a lot.

I won't even fully address the tattoo comment because what the fuck.

EDIT: Ahahahaha I see you gave me a neg rep again because I disagree with the points you come up. Maturity!

Rebuilding models isn't the same as rebuilding the game. I agree with you that animations and visuals are all redone, and are (mostly) superior, and quite stunning.

But models are really only a small part of what goes into building a character. When you talk about restructuring a character from the ground up, you're talking about sitting infront of a blank document and writing out millions of lines of code to do things that have already been done with the same programming language, by you, seven years ago.

And while it doesn't look to play exactly like Brawl (and remember, gameplay is the time consuming, money consuming portion of actually making a game) it does play like something that could have been built off of what already existed. Again, based on what I have watched and what has been said.

Edit: ahaha, that neg rep is from a couple years of watching how you participate on the forum and how you argue with people. You're genuinely an asshole. I mean, you can't find anything more to support your argument other than saying: "You're wrong, you're just mad because your favorite character didn't get in, and look at that signature!"

I mean, you really don't trust your argument to stand without personal attacks and bias? Well, I guess you shouldn't.

If I may interject into this discussion:
Rebuilding something you were familiar with in the first place from scratch tends to stream line and simplify the code, since you know what worked and what didn't going in, and you have more experience than you had before.

This in turn means the new code can be easier to work with AND better at what it does.

For example, it's very possible that the custom moves and characters were easier to implement with the rebuilt Smash4 engine than it would have just to build it from previous Smash titles.

So rebuilding everything may have saved them time per character, and had the entire thing have better performance.

It's entirely possible that someone could mod brawl with all the resources they had to make Smash4 to give it everything Smash 4 had character model tweaks, rebalancing and even all the new game modes, and not only take longer to do, but not work as well as the current version.

Reminder that every Smash also has a radically different art style, because Sakurai knows his stuff. Playstation All Star Battle is a game that re-used every assed they could and borrow from other games and it's literal shit because of that.

EDIT: Adding to what Terminal Devastation said. I always think it's silly to compare Project M to anything. The Project M staff has no deadline to meet at all. They do it at whatever pace they want to.

(09-11-2014, 07:41 PM)Kriven Wrote:

(09-11-2014, 07:37 PM)Vipershark Wrote: I'm saying it's not a simple port job like you're implying.

I could understand taking the brawl base and upscaling it for the Wii U but saying that it's a "lack of resource management" for them to do things differently on a handheld that is less powerful than the original Wii even is kind of ridiculous.

Developers have been making direct ports of their games available for both the Wii and the handheld since the DS.

uh
NSMB debuted on the DS
was up-ported for a sequel to the wii (and then another on the 3ds) and then again on the wii u

you're talking going from a low powered ds game to higher powered systems when the subject at hand is going from brawl (on a more powerful system) to a 3ds version on a less powerful system

I'm not saying it can't handle the engine or whatever but obviously the 3DS can't just straight up run brawl (wheras the Wii/3DS/U can easily run NSMB) so I'm not sure what your point is

(09-11-2014, 07:46 PM)Vipershark Wrote:

(09-11-2014, 07:41 PM)Kriven Wrote:

(09-11-2014, 07:37 PM)Vipershark Wrote: I'm saying it's not a simple port job like you're implying.

I could understand taking the brawl base and upscaling it for the Wii U but saying that it's a "lack of resource management" for them to do things differently on a handheld that is less powerful than the original Wii even is kind of ridiculous.

Developers have been making direct ports of their games available for both the Wii and the handheld since the DS.

uh
NSMB debuted on the DS
was up-ported for a sequel to the wii (and then another on the 3ds) and then again on the wii u

you're talking going from a low poered ds game to higher powered systems when the subject at hand is going from brawl (on a more powerful system) to a 3ds version on a less powerful system

I'm not saying it can't handle the engine or whatever but obviously the 3DS can't just straight up run brawl (wheras the Wii/3DS/U can easily run NSMB) so I'm not sure what your point is

My point included more examples than just NSMB, so I don't know why you think you've discredited it.

(09-11-2014, 07:41 PM)Kriven Wrote:

(09-11-2014, 07:39 PM)Mutsukki Wrote: Then I sincerely am out of the loop, because all the demo and early copies report I see paint a completely opposite picture of what you said. But even so, I still think it's a valid effort to rebuild everything. You could accomplish Mario Kart 8 with the same resources as Wii's but why would they do that? It's a new game, it's a new everything. There's no reason to think they should take the easy route out when they're making a game for a system it never even debuted before. "But they could have built it on Brawl files", but what do you mean by this even? Literally the same files? Same rigging? Same animations? New models wouldn't work well with that. They definitely had to used it as reference but that's it

See, all of your frustration is coming from you just not hearing what I'm saying.

I'm not saying I wanted them to take the easy way out. I'm saying that if they spent all that energy to create something that could have been created by going the easy way, then they should have. If they spent all that energy and created something that is actually different, something that does not feel like what came before it, then they didn't waste the energy at all. Then they started from a blank slate and it was worth it.

You're still hitting the "It's still Brawl'' note and I really don't understand. Maybe we should back off from this until we actually have the game, because your reports say one thing and mine say another. If what I'm reading is to be believed this game is not Melee but is potentially more fun and it seems to feel really different from any other Smash and honestly that's what I'm getting seeing all these streams and videos.

Also remember that this game runs in 60FPS, while Brawl was 30. they had to remake eveyrthing so frames wouldn't be missed or weird

(09-11-2014, 07:51 PM)Mutsukki Wrote:

(09-11-2014, 07:41 PM)Kriven Wrote:

(09-11-2014, 07:39 PM)Mutsukki Wrote: Then I sincerely am out of the loop, because all the demo and early copies report I see paint a completely opposite picture of what you said. But even so, I still think it's a valid effort to rebuild everything. You could accomplish Mario Kart 8 with the same resources as Wii's but why would they do that? It's a new game, it's a new everything. There's no reason to think they should take the easy route out when they're making a game for a system it never even debuted before. "But they could have built it on Brawl files", but what do you mean by this even? Literally the same files? Same rigging? Same animations? New models wouldn't work well with that. They definitely had to used it as reference but that's it

See, all of your frustration is coming from you just not hearing what I'm saying.

I'm not saying I wanted them to take the easy way out. I'm saying that if they spent all that energy to create something that could have been created by going the easy way, then they should have. If they spent all that energy and created something that is actually different, something that does not feel like what came before it, then they didn't waste the energy at all. Then they started from a blank slate and it was worth it.

You're still hitting the "It's still Brawl'' note and I really don't understand. Maybe we should back off from this until we actually have the game, because your reports say one thing and mine say another. If what I'm reading is to be believed this game is not Melee but is potentially more fun and it seems to feel really different from any other Smash and honestly that's what I'm getting seeing all these streams and videos.

Also remember that this game runs in 60FPS, while Brawl was 30. they had to remake eveyrthing so frames wouldn't be missed or weird

Look, just put an "if" before "It's still Brawl."

Don't just assign "It's still Brawl" to my argument, because that's not what I'm saying.

"If it's still Brawl" ... Then they should have used Brawl's resources.

That's all I'm saying.

If it's not Brawl, then whatever. Then it's not Brawl, and they made resources that aren't Brawl.

Well can't we all agree that Sakurai made some poor priority decisions with characters? Let's all shake hands... and lynch Sakurai.

(I'm just kidding)

The real Smash bros. takes place outside the game!

I wonder if the Magicant stage will replace the octopus with a pencil?