Without trying to trace/directly copy your corrections, I made a new version of the Anju sketch with your suggestions in mind. Forgive me if I missed over something. It's a little hard for me to process and understand all the ideas you have presented, so I had to do my best in a way that still makes her appealing to an extent.



I can't wait to try modeling her next.

This thread is too good. You'll never know why.

A huge thing that I see getting in the way is that the broken scratching hinders your ability to feel the broad curves of human anatomy.
Also, each limb is treated as a separate part, whereas they aren't. they flow into each other, muscles overlap and curve along-side each other.
Also, I think using a thinner brush would help greatly, because a lot of features easily get confused when brushes get too big. Also, pen tablet pressure really helps sketching things out (though my driver was being uncooperative while I was sketching around here.)

ALso, when drawing T-poses, a more relaxed pose than the rigid T is often preferred. while having the arms outstretched is easier to rig, they don't have to be all the way up like that.

Not to be rude, but I would have appreciated that critique before I made a sizable amount of progress on the model. Then again, I was never very clear that I started modeling this, so it's okay that you didn't know beforehand.



In regards to the broken scratching that is more or less my drawing style, I did consider at times to drop it since we talked about it before. It's just that if I were to do it, I'm afraid that I'll have to trade it off for line control. While I can see why your method is a lot more efficient, it also runs the risk of some parts looking a little wonky unless you make multiple single strokes (which I can see you do right there in your corrections). Regardless, I might give it a try pretty soon by practicing it on a few of the new Paper Mario parts I'm creating. On top of that, I'm up for trying a thinner stroke in Flash no matter if I follow your advice to use single strokes or not.

As for anatomy in general, I attempt to do my best on it to make sure that the final outcome looks good enough and follows the general guidelines to an extent. With that said, it's really hard for me to keep track of/memorize every little thing about bones and muscles, so I might make some mistakes every now and then. My only hope is that any of these discovered oversights aren't bad enough to raise serious problems in terms of function and appeal. In spite of that, once I get feedback on problems like this, I not only try to apply the corrections, but also keep it in mind the next time I do something like that.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I came off as immature/nasty during what I said, but I just wanted to share those thoughts. As of right now, though, I'm trying to decide if I should continue fiddling with this mesh or throw it out and start all over again with an even better base sketch. If I go with the second option, then I could even try to make her model more of an A pose from the very beginning instead of dealing with whatever problems found from a T posed version of the same mode.

from what im gathering, youd rather be lazy and keep making the bad model instead of taking critique into mind and making the best of what you can.

(06-10-2015, 09:18 AM)E-Man Wrote: Not to be rude, but I would have appreciated that critique before I made a sizable amount of progress on the model. Then again, I was never very clear that I started modeling this, so it's okay that you didn't know beforehand.

sometimes, to make the best out of things, you just have to do it over. when i make animations, i always have to redo it when im not pleased with it, no matter how long it took to make it. you just have to realize these issues just to get better.

also, judging by the progress of the model so far, its not really that much. i'd say that its at least 20% of a completed and usable model. redoing it shouldnt be a huge issue.

(06-10-2015, 09:18 AM)E-Man Wrote: In regards to the broken scratching that is more or less my drawing style, I did consider at times to drop it since we talked about it before. It's just that if I were to do it, I'm afraid that I'll have to trade it off for line control.

its definitely better than the broken scratching. like sketchasaurus said, these broken, thick lines are hindering your ability to make smooth curves, which is the essential in drawing adult women. im pretty shit at controlling my lines, but you dont see me giving in to scratching.

anyway, i hope you consider giving up the model and focus on a good base first and foremost. its a better option if you want to improve

You should probably start over. If the base reference image isn't good, then neither would anything built from it without corrections.

If you're having trouble memorizing anatomy, why not look up anatomy references as you draw? At some point, you'll naturally and automatically remember some parts because you've done it so much. So you don't need to emphasize on memorization nor stress out if there is ever a time where you forget.

And really, part of it too is building muscle memory and being able to feel around a drawing confidently and competently. and a sketch line isn't even a final line anyways. Anatomy really doesn't have to be a difficult thing, considering we see other humans amongst us practically every single day.

Also "style" is almost never a valid justification as far as I'm concerned (I'm sure I've said something to that effect in general countless times, but it bears repeating, I suppose) And really, license to stylize comes after a certain level of understanding is achieved (though this is subjective) But the amount of practice (or lack thereof) will be apparent in one's work and hinder the appeal. It's more obvious, and distracting, when something looks "off" than when something looks "right" But it's also important to train your eye in addition to your hand when drawing.
Heck, you don't have to go deep into the anatomical study or know which muscle the sternocleidomastoid is (hint: it's the muscle that attaches from the collar bone region to the base of the skull) but knowing the major shapes that the bones and muscles make will only help you in the long run. In essence, it all ties in with the quote I keep in my signature by good ol' Salvador Dali, who is known for his very stylized works. But I'll include it in my post:

Begin by learning to draw and paint like the old masters. After that, you can do as you like; everyone will respect you.

I think I might have said the wrong things/wasn't clear on a few details, so I'm sorry if that caused you guys to become very frustrated with me. Even though I gave my reasons on why it would be hard for me to learn all these things properly, I'm still going to learn them anyway if that's what concerns you. Also, I was mostly trying to see if the model I made is salvageable with a few tweaks applied here and there, but since you guys want me to start all over again, I'm up for the practice. If it came off as being lazy (along with not specifying what I mean by "later"), then please forgive me.

Anyway, instead of just jumping into drawing a complete version of Anju right off the bat, I want to start off the biggest priorities, which are making a more convincing skeleton and drop the habit of using broken scratching.



This is the best I can do without tracing over any references to get construction shapes and the like. Obviously, it's nothing to write home about (including the second attempt on the bottom right). In spite of that, the best strategy I can think of is to keep making multiple versions of these crude skeletons until I get one that looks appealing and makes my sketching quality look a whole lot better. I can understand this taking a very long time and I'll have to make multiple sketches until I get it right, but it's all part of the creative process, right?

One wasted half hour for a failed attempt and a half hour later has graced me with this abomination.

I know I'm still new to this and i have a long way to go but the fact that this is the first thing I bothered to model shames me.

I'm taking a Computer Aided Design class for my major, and our first assignment was to design ourselves a throne.



Still have to finish the Pope hat, but it's not bad for an hour of work. Hopefully it'll look alright printed

I had to double post to get the picture to show up. Weird.

I don't do much modeling, but I kinda' felt like doing something tonight, so here, have a Flapper. x:


Some things are still a bit off, but that's what you get when you don't bring your references into the program. A bit more time spent tweaking vertex placement wouldn't hurt either.

did this, i have a modeling class this semester

(06-10-2015, 05:06 PM)E-Man Wrote: I think I might have said the wrong things/wasn't clear on a few details, so I'm sorry if that caused you guys to become very frustrated with me. Even though I gave my reasons on why it would be hard for me to learn all these things properly, I'm still going to learn them anyway if that's what concerns you. Also, I was mostly trying to see if the model I made is salvageable with a few tweaks applied here and there, but since you guys want me to start all over again, I'm up for the practice. If it came off as being lazy (along with not specifying what I mean by "later"), then please forgive me.

Anyway, instead of just jumping into drawing a complete version of Anju right off the bat, I want to start off the biggest priorities, which are making a more convincing skeleton and drop the habit of using broken scratching.



This is the best I can do without tracing over any references to get construction shapes and the like. Obviously, it's nothing to write home about (including the second attempt on the bottom right). In spite of that, the best strategy I can think of is to keep making multiple versions of these crude skeletons until I get one that looks appealing and makes my sketching quality look a whole lot better. I can understand this taking a very long time and I'll have to make multiple sketches until I get it right, but it's all part of the creative process, right?

If you're going to invest the time, you might as well do it right. Here is a pdf to the Bridgman text, it's one of the best out there. https://archive.org/details/pdfy-72f-FzW7wYN_r0ny

Also here is one to Loomis. I prefer the Bridgman but everyone learns differently and in the past many members preferred the Loomis (typically because they felt it was "easier" but frankly, Bridgman's method of blocking in the figure is much better in the long run as it's more adaptable to other aspects of drawing. But hey you do you). 
https://archive.org/details/loomis_FIGURE_draw


I really appreciate that you're going back and trying to fix your mistakes and learn to improve. But you need to do it from an informed and even somewhat academic manner if you want any real results. Drawing isn't just "being creative", it's a scientific practice with very real rules and concepts that must be employed to some degree if you want any success. You need structure or else you'll just get a mess. If the foundation is strong, the final product will be as well.

yay progress on this yet unnamed thing