Well, at least we can now play as different characters than Sonic or Sonic... which was always a bummer for me. I don't like Sonic in Sonic, but I like other characters such as Tails, Gamma, Amy (the one before she went mad), Cream or Rouge. AND NO, I don't like the females just because of their fan service .

I kinda like the idea of an OC machine. Finally we can have a female character in there which is not only there to run after sonic to love him, just cheering him on or being kidnapped to be rescued by "theflawlessherowhocandoeverythingbyhimselfalonewithoutanyoneshelpbecauseheiscoolandawesomechillidogs", but she will be doing what the others should have done in any new gen Sonic game, helping out by doing something usefull (and no, giving hints or shout out the incomming attack of an boss is not really the "usefull" I mean).

This sounds like a SA2 Battle generation post...

'Other characters' were a big part of ruining Sonic...

When they are done wrong... sure.

But you can do "other characters" right... just look at the classic Sonics rival Knuckles. Even Sonic 3s Knuckles has way more character than modern Sonic. And how exactly did they ruin Sonic exactly? I know, that the characters are badly written since Adventure 1, but so is Sonic himself also.

By taking away the spotlight? Sonic already has a lot of the spot since adventure (largest story mode and mostly in the final story a major part). Other characters can greatly help to give Sonic more character, like make him vulnerable and make him actually care for stuff (Tails, Amy), having conflics (Knuckles), learn differnt ways to approach problems (Cream, also Amy) and eventually teaming up and concentrate on solving major issues (Eggman, Shadow). Now he is just a joke spitting hedgehog who laughs about everything.


Hate them or not, they at least gave us variety in the gameplay (tho I agree that big from Adventure 1 was a waste, but he was an advertisement for a fishing rod anyway... so no wonder this is bad), which is why I'm happy to see Sonic Mania.

Now, these characters only exisist to be made fun of by sonic... they add absolutly nothing. Because fans always want Sonic, Sonic and Sonic, they pushed them so far away, that they became just objects for sonic to mock about. There is no balance, which makes the character and story (in my eyes) boring, awful and pridictable as hell.

(05-19-2017, 04:36 AM)Goemar Wrote: This sounds like a SA2 Battle generation post...

'Other characters' were a big part of ruining Sonic...

I never bought this--I always loved Sonic's massive cast of characters. It felt like the world was alive and inhabited by many interesting people and creatures. The only thing that bothered me was the fact that Sonic's Friends were the only anthropomorphic animals in these cities full of Regular People.

"New Characters Kills Franchise" is kind of a Miyamoto position. I'm calling you Goemiyamoto from now on.

For me, Sonic was ruined when they started rushing development and releasing glitchy messes, and then falling into this trap of "GOTTA GO FASTER!" games with Sonic Unleashed/Colors/Generations where they're basically on-rail runners that don't let you explore or soak in the enemies and their animations, or register the collectibles on the screen before they're gone.

i dunno about you all, but SA2/battle did a pretty clever job of bringing in new gameplay elements. of course Sonic and Shadow shared the speed portions, and knux and rouge shared the treasure hunting. but then you have tails and eggman who utilize something of their own to be unique playable characters (i consider them as updates to Gamma since the shooting mechanics from SA are widely improved).

then they threw in amy, tikal and metal sonic for the multiplayer mode, which i really love. especially because they're pretty fun varients on the gameplay styles.

call it nostalgia, but i think SA2B has aged pretty well.

The main problem people have with the "too many characters" thing isn't necessarily that the characters are bad (most of them are in my opinion, but that's not the point here), but by having so many characters with different play styles it makes the core gameplay (Sonic's gameplay would, for all intents to and purposes is the "core gameplay") suffers as a result and you end with a jumbled, broken mess.

Basically if they kept focus exlsclusively to sonic and THEN. when that was solid they could have moved on to alternate gameplay styles.

(05-16-2017, 07:56 PM)Gors Wrote: I never made a sonic oc in my life but if I do I'll probably try to recreate Kevin Triebel with this sonic OC creator

You know I have a feeling that several infamous users from ptold and some of the forgotten members on here would make the perfect fit for sonic OC characters, speaking of Kevin.

Pretty sure at least one of them had a sonic OC.

Mixing gameplay elements is fine. I mean, you have to do it REALLY well for it too work, but it can work.
With Sonic, though - it didn't work.

Now don't get me wrong, when Sonic Adventure first came out - I was blown away. It looked so damn amazing, was super cool, great music. It was like the stuff of dreams. But only on face value. Without the nostalgia, without the Sonic name - it's just not great.

And in my opinion, Adventure 2 was worse. Maybe not as an actually worse game but it simply didn't build on the first enough and the other characters had way too many levels compared to Sonic.

Anyway, onto my actual point. Everything Sonic Adventure 2 does, it does 'ok'. But that's it. And having lots of different types of 'ok' doesn't make something good. The treasure hunting was pretty damn dull, the shooting was just not great at all (yes, it was different - but imagine a whole game of that? Exactly). And, the standard 3D Sonic levels still weren't great. They got nothing right but still kept trying to stick stuff onto it.

As for characters being there to give Sonic vulnerability and stuff - no. Like, I get some people want a Sonic game with a story and all that -
but what games have you been playing? The story in Sonic games is executed about as well as it is in Gears of War 2. Knuckles has always came off awkward as hell as if his lines are being passed to the guy as he speaks and then we have the infamous Tails stands perfectly still while the Chaos Emerald is stolen from him.

Basically, it's just bad.

Once 3D Sonic is actually a solid good game - then add some dude who does something different. Adding more broken stuff onto something already broken is just bad. It may make fans happy so they can write there fan-fiction and colour Sonic green and make a story where he's a terrible webhost or something but gamers, Sega - and Sonic - deserve a truly good 3D game. And as many times as Sega may say 'we're going back to Sonic's roots this time!' - they have yet to make a universally praised game that is seen as a classic.

Quote:they have yet to make a universally praised game that is seen as a classic.

And they never will because of how fractured the fanbase is. Everything you said is "wrong" and "bad" about SA2 is everything that makes me want to go back to it. Sonic's Friends having just as many levels as Sonic? I thought they needed more levels. Sonic and Shadow's levels are all, IMO, smartly designed. Would I play and love a whole game of Tails/Eggman/Gamma shooting mode? You bet your damn ass I would.

Sonic will never star in a universally praised game, because the audience for the games are split into at least three groups:

Genesis Fans (they might like the Advance games. Maybe the Rush games) -- these guys like the classic, Sonic-Only, 2D, no-story speed platforming experience. If they're smart, they appreciate the way the Genesis games also forced you to slow down and handle some puzzles and genuine platforming. The games from this era are very tonally different, and put a certain emphasis on the cute and varied cast of Badniks Sonic comes up against.

Adventure Fans - Obviously the Adventure games, but you can probably include Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog (and Sonic 06...) in this group. This is where the first split happened: a certain percentage of people who liked Genesis Sonic (like me) also fell in love with the Adventure series. And a certain percentage said "WTF is this shit?" and left. And a certain percentage of people who had never been interested in Sonic suddenly saw the kind of game they would like to play. This franchise tried (and usually succeeded) in honoring Sonic's roots, but it also took things way more in a SatAM direction. The franchise became less cute in general, and an emphasis was put on dramatic storylines as opposed to cartoonish antics. Gameplay was expanded into a variety of different styles, and an emphasis was put on broadening and developing Sonic's cast of supporting characters. This series also introduced the wildly popular Chao Garden--a mode which was out of place, perhaps, but off to the side and inconsequential to those who didn't want to play it.

Unleashed Fans - Some of the Genesis fans who had left came back when Sega started producing the Unleashed style games, while a big number of the Adventure fans left. Sonic Generations even managed to attract some people with its "Classic Style" modes (but in my opinion, these modes fail to capture the spirit or gameplay of Sonic Genesis and are just kind of... awful). This generation is largely defined by a lack of platforming elements and a "Boost to Win" type of gameplay. There really isn't too much difference between these games and the mobile game Sonic Dash. An emphasis has been put on creating a sense of speed, which means that enemies and environments are almost inconsequential as you kind of just blaze past them. The stories have been scaled back to self-contained humorous adventures, and Sonic's group of friends have mostly been removed. These games emphasize the player's score and encourage repeated plays of a stage to memorize and perfect its timing in order to obtain the highest score.


This is without addressing one-offs like Lost World or the fanbases which have developed around Sonic's animated and comic book incarnations (and honestly, the most important entry in the series has--for the past fifteen years--been Archie's comic book series). When you consider all of these different factors, and how each of these little franchises has a whole different audience, you start to see why nothing Sonic does will ever reach universal acclaim. Some of us prefer Adventure and hate Generations, and some of us prefer they just stop making games altogether and just play the Genesis ones, and some of us prefer the modern style of gameplay. Some of us only liked Lost World, some of us liked Sonic Chronicles, some of us like Genesis but don't like Advanced or Rush, and some of us only watched Sonic X, and thousands of us only read the Archie series... and hell, there's probably a certain group of kids now who only like the Sonic Boom series.

Sonic Team can't please all its fans with a single game. They'll have to release a few different games, with each encompassing what fans like of a particular style, if they want to please everybody for that generation.

With the classic genre, you do a lot more platforming while occasionally going fast. The going fast thing is some sort of brain cooldown, as mostly during these sections, you don't do much other than rolling or running. That's not bad though, as it helps you to shut your brain for a short time down and relax after overcomming a challenge, until you reach (often by throwing you into a mostly vertical section of the level) the next challenges.

Adventure was more about exploration and gimmick gameplay rather then just going to the finish. Now, the purest form of that would be Knuckles/Rogue (Treasure Hunt) and Big (Yeah... the weird fishing thing), but the other characters also use exploration to a certain degree. Sonic/Shadow/SA1Tails are about to find the fastest way possible, in order to rank well enough or beat an rival. In SA2, the best Sonic level to see the exploration elements in is Pyramid Cave, where you have to get off the road at one point of the level to find a key to open a door later on. Sonic Heros also falls into this (don't know about 06 or Shadow because I never played these two) with mostly Chaotix having the exploration theme going almost all the time. Sometimes (at most in Heros) this can be annoying to a certain degree, depending on the stage or game, since as Sonic, most people want to go fast and don't want to look for keys, crystals, or switches. About gimmick gameplay, I think the shooting characters did the best here (gimmick excludes Sonic and Shadow, also the pure speed Levels), as they were still about getting to the end (and eventually beat a boss or something), just with a different way to get there (SA2 fixes the errors/not so well elements from SA Gamma mode).

They kinda tried to combine the fast "going for the finish line" from Classic with the exploration from Adventure, which later resulted into Heros, Unleashed and other, newer games, where Unleashed has Werehog as the gimmick element in here (heck, even the Tornado Minigame from Adventure is... kinda here). The only problem I have with Unleashed (and to a much smaller degree Generations, as Generations did a much better job at the regular levels, not counting the challenge levels), is the fast boosting. While it is fun to crash most enemies with it and running through a stage with the speed of sound (yeah, said that), the leveldesign is kinda frustrating with the sucker punches around every boost section. Even inside the sections, which should be mostly for "Reward for Fun" moments like the genesis games, they put dangers down on your road, which you have to dodge quickly (which are, if you didn't played the level before, almost impossible to dodge while boosting).

I like all three styles of gameplay. Each of them has flaws, as well as good points. There is no perfect game among these.


About the characters in terms of the story. The biggest issue with Sonic games is the story... yeah, again, who plays it for the story? I'm not playing it for the story, but more because of it's gameplay (like most games). But a well made story helps to keep you interessted in the games universe, lore and characters. It's not required to make a well playing game, but it's an ingredient, which can make your games more tasty. At the moment, Sonic (and even a lot of the other characters) doesn't seem to take their universe seriously one bit, giving you the akward feeling of not caring about anything in the game (Why would you even, if they don't do it?).

How the characters are written now, is a huge problem (this was also a problem before modern Sonic... in any Sonic game with a story, to a lower or higher degree... it depends)... while I understand, when people say, that Sonic should be the main focus and the character, what this is all about, he is waaaaaaaaaaaay to powerful, which makes him... unnatural. Beside the not able to swim thing, Sonic as almost no other weakness, making him dominating over everyone, making them obsolete. Heck, even his big bad Eggman has no chance anymore, as he never gets moments anymore, that payoff for him. At least, in Adventure and Classic, his plans kinda worked to a certain part. But now, even if he does something, it seems to do only a little against Sonic, who doesn't have to fear anything, since he can do... everthing to save himself the second he just got into danger... erasing every tension we ever would get.

Tension is not a bad thing... I can help to keep the players attention, like "how is he gonna do that? what will he do?". It also can make him look more badass, if he actually manages to find a way to escape from the danger in the last second (well, at least thats more epic to watch than Sonic just saying "You are a idoit, Eggy", with him escaping the danger in just a second and beating Eggman instantly). Thats what I mean with there is "no balance". The entrie Story of the games are just about Sonic wrecking everthing alone, being a perfect being... and that's all sorts of boring, which is the reason I dispise modern Sonic and other Heros like him (I either like the sidekick/s or main bad more than the main heros because of that).

Give Sonic some flaws and weaknesses, power up the other characters (not to much, but still enough to do "something" besides being kidnapped or shouting at Sonic in order to warn him about enemy attacks) and make Eggy and Sonic having a Ping-Pong Style of Progression with their Stylepoints. Like, let Eggman score a point against Sonic (example, actually finding a way to get rid of him), than Sonic score a point against Eggman (example, by comming back from Eggys "way of getting rid of him" and kick his evil Robobotsbutt). Make both equally strong, not one of them overpowered (Sonic) while the other one has no real chance of a comeback (Eggman). It's okay to make Sonic be afraid of something. It makes him more believable and natural and the game more interessting to follow, unlike how he is now. It's okay to make Eggman actually more threatening, as it helps his reputation as a serious threat for Sonic. He doesn't need to be ultra dark and serious like end-of-the-world kinda Eggman, but he needs to become a worthy opponent, rather than... what he is now (it's hard to describe that).

Honestly, I don't care about Sonic's character. I mean, the Mario games are great and well, there's hardly an emotional storyline there. Not every game needs it. We have The Last of Us for stuff like that. Hell, the God of War games do it better than any Sonic game has and that's a game about an angry man.

I also don't really care if Sonic pleases the fans. Like, pleasing the fans is Sega's biggest failing - as like you said, it can't be done.

I just want a great game. So when people say 'hey remember how great X game was' a new Sonic game gets a mention. That when people say how great the Breath of the Wild was years from now some one brings up Sonic.

Yes, fans would be mad at first but a great game lasts a lot longer than people bashing on about how cool it was to have the Chaotix crew in one game which was pretty pants.

One thing that is important in gamedev is to have a vision for things: that is, you can't make a game that you know no one is going to like. This is why you should do some research before, check out the consumers' tastes, the trends in gaming...

That doesn't mean you need to completely follow the current though - this research is to give you an idea of the market, and therefore, give you a bigger chance of succeeding. But once you get the feel of the market, you have to focus and produce something genuinely good.

Most AAA titles try to please everybody instead of focusing on a smaller group, and that often results in watering down concepts that are solid, but a less-skilled person would struggle with. And, if they don't stray away from the concept and still focus on the main ideas, they aren't satisfied with the sold unit numbers.

But it's better to make a game that sells poorly, but it's good, than a game that sells okay, but it's shit. Making a good game, regardless of popularity, will be more fulfilling in a long run and will be the source of many moments of joy for a lot of players, and it could even become a cult hit.

(05-24-2017, 08:17 AM)Gors Wrote: But it's better to make a game that sells poorly, but it's good, than a game that sells okay, but it's shit.

Fully agree but it isn't feasible. To make a good game, you have to invest on it many resources (time, money, research...) or if you don't have revenues you can't make a good game. The developer go towards the bankruptcy.
It is essential that the developer knows to make the balance between the two.

Pre-order trailer with confirmed release date.

My god, that animation is beautiful. Also, Stardust Speedway is the next classic zone revealed, which is now overtaken by plant Badniks.