(05-16-2017, 11:38 AM)Kosheh Wrote: the persona games were always terrible. ha ha time to shoot myself in the foot head to summon a demon
the only redeeming factor is literally shigenori soejima's incredible artwork  ohhhhhhhh soejima-san please draw my wife with lines as soft as her face sprinkle me with her anime cheese

you unbind your keyboard too

(05-18-2017, 11:52 PM)Gors Wrote: Klonoa was... an ok game I guess

I didn't get any of the "this is a Good Game" vibe, just "this is a Game That Exists" and I was like well okay,

this exists.

The game is indeed a tad slow and the momentum is essentially inexistant so platforming isn't too difficult - that is, until trick jumps with the bubble thing starts to appear, and that's nice.

One thing that I don't like is how everything else seems to dwarf in character design compared to Klonoa himself. It feels like 80% of the character designer budget went to Klonoa and they had to do whatever they could with the remaining 20%

My ex-girlfriend wanted me to play this game so bad and even wanted to watch me beat it but I honestly got bored on the 80% mark and gave up, which upset her a lot. But to be honest, none of her fave games were games I liked so there's that

---

Also it was incredibly verbose and tryhard in storytelling, which I don't really enjoy. Not that it's bad, just not my cup of tea. An action game should try and do the most of storytelling with the actions and gameplay elements, not cutscenes and speech bubbles everywhere

i definitely think the games would work better with a different style of narration, rather than just boring comic/storybook style. it would probably fit with the voiceless cutscenes, a la Sonic Before/After the Sequel since the plots are pretty simple for the most part and therefore have enough context to not need narration or dialogue.

i have played the GBA klonoa games before. a long time ago, but i remember them being a lot faster gameplay wise. the puzzles were also really unique and simple enough to be fun. the mechanics surpass the PS1 and wonderswan's, especially because klonoa doesn't move at a snail's pace.

Well, there were a few game I couldn't befriend myself with. There are ironicaly some popular games under there like SM64 (not a fan of the collectathon games, levels looked weird like flying islands, plattforming was later very helllish), FF7 and 8 (Storywise not my style and I don't get the hype about the characters, FF8s monster levelup system that destroys grinding and even punishes people doing grinding for the wrong reasons), Zelda OoT (not that bad, but late game back- and forthtracking, item trade sidequest, lame final boss fight) and probably more, which I don't remember at the moment... remember, unpopular opinions are common from me.

Probably those are kinda burnded into my mind, because many people I know shoved those games in my face over and over and didn't stop trying to convince me what fantastic "master pieces" they are and I "have to" love them... Trust me, a thing such as a "master piece" will never exsist, as every game has flaws and there will be always at least one person, who doesn't like it. Perfect games don't exsist.


Well... back to topic. A game I played to the end and was left with a sour taste was... again unpopular opinion incomming... Mega Man 2. Yeah, I have to say, that I even pefer most of Rockman and Forte Levels over this (I said "most", the King Levels still were bad, gosh, hated those stages!).

The thing I don't like about MM2 is it's level design. I really don't like it.

Metal Man is the only kinda okayish stage to me, just the constant stop and go was not that cool or thrilling.

Bubble Man is a boring level with hot wire (aka "don't touch the top") sections later on.

Flash Mans level even crancks up the blandness with a disco maze with annoying enemies placed in annoyingly places and a pretty messy boss room.

Air Man tops the bland stage aesthetics department and has pretty annoying enemies and a boss that is sometimes impossible (without an item weapon or wood) to dodge, cause Mega can't slide yet.

Crash Mans stage is a level designed by a troll, like who was that guy who though letting Pipi's sh... eggs on your head while climbing ladder is a fun thing? Also without weapon aid, the Telly enemy sure will make you love it. Compared to the stage, the boss has an IQ of 1 and is super easy exploidable.

Then, we have Wood Man, a stage that loves to throw time wasting minibosses one after another and enemies that are time consuming to kill ("finally move you bat guys") and the boss is just way to powerful and his attacks fill almost everything of the room, even though, he very dumb (which doesn't matter, if his Leaf Shield powers are awesome, compared to yours).

Everyone who played MM2 knows, how badly designed Heat Mans level is. Either, it's too annoying or too easy. Let me give you an example, use the blocks that appear and disappear to climb over the wall and dodge Telly enemies, or just shoot a Crash Bomb to open the path. Or how about this, use appearing/disappearing blocks, with troll patterns in it, to overcome an large instant death trap or just use item 2. Nothing to say about the boss beside the fact that I still don't get his candle fire throw attack, how it works. Otherwise, it's just a bullfight with the same two attacks over and over...


And don't get me started with Quick Man or Wily stages...

While Quick Mans stage has an kinda interessting gimmick going on, it makes the level god awful to play. I had no enjoyment in this entire level. I would even go and say, this might be the worst Mega Man level, I have ever played (well, worst robot master level at least, not including special ones or wily levels). First, despite the name Quick Man, his stage has a lot of time wasting enemies. Also, one side thing... why are the Hothead enemies used here and not in Heat Mans level? Why is the the dark room gimmick used here with the Hothead to light it up? Wouldn't fit more into Heat Man actually? These sections are so out of place, that they are used here to distract you from the real gimmick, to which I come later. Besides the (unfitting) Hothead rooms, we have rooms with Sniper Joes, Tank Joes and Scworms (or how they were called). Simply enemies that are just here to waste time and don't add any interessting challenge whatsoever... even Springer is placed in this level in annoying places.

So... and now, the death beams... oh boy... who ever though this level is a master piece, is trully a troll. I mean, I get it, it's Quick Man, so the level is based around quick things (funny, how most of the stuff here slows you down more but we already mentioned that). You're supposed to run as fast as you can downwards to avoid the laser hazards, which are comming from left or right at certain heights. So, this is the only thing in this level, that actually fits the theme of the robotmaster.  Well... there are some major problems with that gimmick however...

They are... sooooo unforgiving.

One hit and you are dead... no matter from where, how or whatever. One mistake and you go back to the start (or checkpoint) and do it again. I wouldn't be so bad, if they were a bit slower or if you would have more time to react. Most of the time, you just drop into the room, get surprised by the beams and die. Then, you go back there, try to make your way through the room, getting hit by another laser... go back! Do it again! There are even level layouts that are teasing you for not having the slide function from MM3. Heck, this entire level looks like it has been build for MM3 or 4, even before MM3 exsisted. Once you finally pass the laser room, there are more to come. Enter the next screen in a wrong way can make the next room impossible to surrive, since the lasers are designed in a way that even on the fastest route through the room, those things are almost getting you. To troll you even more, they placed a lot of items near these things, to lure you into the death trap and make you waste more time, which you don't have here.

And before I get my head slammed by someone, yes, I'm aware that Flash Mans weapon stops these things and the level is designed to make the best use of that weapon. But then again, every robot master level should be played without needing a masters weapon. While it's possible to beat the level without it, it's only possible with a lot of patience and trial and error which is the main issue with this level. Yes, I know... MM always had trial and error elements in the series, but it doesn't justify Quick Mans level to be the way it is, as it crancks the trial and error stuff to the extreme. This stage is simply no fun to me. No clever challenges, a lot of annoying enemies and the only clever thing destroys the whole potential of this level due to trial and error.

One more thing about mister Quick Man, is that Quick Man himself is one of the most annoying robot master bosses of all time (at least for me). Doing a no damage run on this guy without Flash seems to be a miracle to do. His pattern is erratic and fast, so dodging in his arena is almost impossible and even if you can dodge him jumping around like a bouncy ball, good luck dodging his boomerangs of weirdness, as I still can't figure out, how these things fly the way they do. It doesn't help, that he is weak to Flashs weapon, which you probably want to use for the level instead. So you waste all of Flash, because you don't want to go insane on the trial and error stuff the level throws at you. Just to make sure you reach the boss not with full healt, just throw some Tank Joes and Sniper Joes at the end of the level. I know you can farm for stuff here, but who wants to farm items at the least favorite enemies possible to farm from?


Don't remember most the Wily levels well, I only know that level one is supershort and is annoying if you don't know that you need the items to get further (wasted item 3 and 1) and it's boss is also kinda a RNG kind of thing (hate that area). Level two was a "wait on platforms" kind of level (or was that level 3?) and that it had blindjumps with death as consequence of failure and the boss was easy as hell. Level three was kinda interessting with the use of Bubble Leads ground tracking, but it's boss is super awful designed (requires Crash Bomb, if you don't have a lot of it left, you have to game over yourself and do the level again). Level 4 was a boring, spikeladen sewerlevel with very little enemies, a trial and error spikefall and again with a super easy boss. Level 5 was just refights and then fighting the worst boss of the entire game, who has attacks that are really impossible to dodge and two healthbars.

The level I remember the most was the final level, while the start is time wasting, bland and breakable (hold right while falling down the tunnel, then run right and jump to have a good time), the boss idea was a neat surprise and easly one of my favorite moments of this game. Making Wily seem to be an alien with his saucer was indeed something creative and funny to witness. I remembered myself seeing this the first time. Man, was I blown away...

Sadly... this is a poorly designed fight for such an epic thing...

The alien just flies in a 8-figure path, while ocasionally shooting a single small pellet at you, while trying to make heavy contact damage to you. That sounds kinda familiar, doesn't it? Yeah... and just to confuse you even more, they maked him weak to only Bubble Lead. Every other weapon heals him up to full health with a single shot. That's not making him hard... thats just cheap and trying to hide this flawed boss fight. It's boring... sadly. I always wanted to make my own version of the fight because of this...

I know that Wily is (sadly) no alien and the thing was just a decoy to mess with Mega Man, but I wished they did something bigger than this... testboss(?) fight...


Then, Wily is defeated (no idea what happens to him, since the game doesn't tell you unlike MM1), showing Mega Man walking through the seasons (for... what reason? Are days, months flying by as he walks... home?) put his helmet down (again, why? Doesn't he want to fight anymore X7 Mega Man?) and... thats it...


Well... thats all what I can say about Mega Man 2, It might helped the next games to become what they are by setting a few basics up, which have been used since, but in my eyes, this game is deeply flawed, mainly due to it's level design, weird design choices, all over the place difficulty and Quick Man.


...

Alright, one more good thing... it got E-Tanks .

MM2's level design is pretty much seen as the best of the series - with MM9 borrowing heavily from it.

So... yeah...



As for Klonoa - I think the fact the games were just 'ok' is why we haven't seen more of them...

i dunno Klonoa 1 is a really good game imo. It has the same storybook kind of feel to it like say Yoshi's Island. Every level clicks and I feel like I'm part of something bigger than just "traverse through levels and win"
the Wonderswan and GBA games are super boring though and I never played Klonoa 2

(05-19-2017, 04:34 AM)Goemar Wrote: MM2's level design is pretty much seen as the best of the series - with MM9 borrowing heavily from it.

So... yeah...

So... yeah? So...?

Why do people see it that way? That would wake my interest, because often people only claim it to be good, but never tell why. As you can tell from my huge list of things, I really trying to find good spots for MM2 leveldesign but I can't see any. What makes it good?

Regarding MM9, while it has some issues here and there, it did some of the things 2 tried in a better way. I think also, even if you can see MM2 DNA all over the game, there is also a lot of DNA from other games here (Splash Woman has for example MM3 and MM5 parts, the moving water tank platforms and the bubbles).

I think the biggest issue Klonoa has is finding an identity that easily understandable to a mass audience. Look at him, is he supposed to be some kind of cute, Kirby-esque Animaniacs character, or is he street-smart, smooth-talking, and edgy? Just based on his design, on that first impression people are going to get when they pick up a Klonoa box at GameStop and try to decide: "Is this something I want my kids playing?"

The games aren't really made *for* anybody--they're just made. They appeal specifically to the group of people "Who Like Klonoa Games," because they're a little too difficult to take in without trying one first.

Just my thoughts on why it's a struggling franchise, anyway.

Let's see, annoyingly bad games...

How about... Man, I like a lot of games that are "rough around the edges," and every time I go to put one in this thread I think about its benefits instead. Like, Marvel Nemesis: Rise of the Imperfects is a game with some serious issues, not the least of which is its total lack of balance and priority. By the same token, there are a lot of cool things in that game and I like to visit it every so often, and I actually get inspired by what the developers did with it--I wouldn't feel right calling it "annoyingly bad," because I think it has a lot of good. Even though I can understand why a lot of people wouldn't like it.

I guess I'll go with Glover. There's no getting past how ridiculous its physics are or that requirement to escort the ball through every level. Glitches are god damn everywhere, and the worlds just aren't... "Worlds," their obstacle courses with very thin stereotypical "aesthetic" qualities that "Kind of look like" they might be something possible. And, IIRC, you can't get 100% completion in any stage without basically dying fifty-thousand times experimenting with every posible action against every possible part of the stage, just on the off-chance there's ten collectible gem thingies (or were they magic cards in this game?) hidden behind a false wall that only activates if you do some inane task around it four-hundred times.

Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain.

Because they gave us the best stealth gameplay the series has ever seen, and then copy-pasted a third of the missions for the second half of the game that they didn't even finish before shipping out.

(05-19-2017, 06:11 AM)Hiro-sofT Wrote:

(05-19-2017, 04:34 AM)Goemar Wrote: MM2's level design is pretty much seen as the best of the series - with MM9 borrowing heavily from it.

So... yeah...

So... yeah? So...?

Why do people see it that way? That would wake my interest, because often people only claim it to be good, but never tell why. As you can tell from my huge list of things, I really trying to find good spots for MM2 leveldesign but I can't see any. What makes it good?

Regarding MM9, while it has some issues here and there, it did some of the things 2 tried in a better way. I think also, even if you can see MM2 DNA all over the game, there is also a lot of DNA from other games here (Splash Woman has for example MM3 and MM5 parts, the moving water tank platforms and the bubbles).

I wish I could give some deep meaningful answer here - but well, they just play well. Like, I don't have a game design degree but whenever I play through the classic NES MM games (which, sadly, is fairly often) MM2 is always the massive stand-out for me. It's just excellent.

---

I'll join you on MGSV... like I really wish more happened in that game. It's like 'too much story' to 'same missions over and over' 'little end scene'

Like, I know the series has stupid stories - but I LOVED those stupid stories. But literally nothing happens for the whole of the damn game. The open world wasn't worth the sacrifice for everything else the MGS series was in my opinion.

(05-18-2017, 08:44 PM)Kosheh Wrote: * Kosheh sticks finger in eye, removes eye booger

sorry if I'm derailing here, but I hope you don't mind me interjecting. Also me being the one who technically "started this fight", let me be the one to end it, I guess.

(05-18-2017, 07:20 PM)Benny The Miraj Wrote:

(05-18-2017, 02:56 PM)Gors Wrote: You think this is going to be an internet fight? Looks like you haven't been into an actual internet flamewar then my little friendu

I don't care about changing your mind nor I want you to enjoy Mario. I don't even play a lot of Mario to begin with, but once you press "Post Reply" you abide to being refuted if needed, and simply put, being refuted is not being attacked by "Mario" "Fans" "Who" "Hate" "Sonic" "And" "Final" "Fantasy" "Seven"

If you think that a simple exchange of points of view is an imminent fight then I think you should like go outside and chill a little. Not even being ironic right now, in case I'm sounding condescending

Communicating by text is kinda shit when coming to nuances but believe me, no one's trying to one-up you in this discussion, we just want to tell you that just because you don't enjoy Game A, it doesn't mean it's Game A's flaw.

Personally, I'm trying to be reasonable. I'm mostly just expecting a fight because of myself. ...To be honest, I'm usually not this patient when my opinions are challenged. Maybe I'm improving as a person, I guess.

But when a person doesn't enjoy "Game A," it's because "Game A" has a flaw. And IMO, Mario's flaw is its core gameplay, which you guys like, and that's fine. However, you are also going as far as to treating an opinion as a fact. If you think Mario has super-tight controls, good for you. I personally don't think it does, and defending it and creating elaborate sentences as to how the flaws I find aren't real flaws won't make me think differently. This discussion is just going to go nowhere as long as you continue to treat an opinion as a fact.

When you post a "controversial" opinion and someone doesn't get it, saying "Wow that sucks I don't like your opinion" is kind of a terrible way to retort, isn't it. You posted a relatively unpopular opinion, and I, being one who thinks Mario games have pretty tight controls all-considering, thought it was unusual to hear someone say "These controls are clunky". I figured I'd ask "WHY are they clunky," as in my experience, they're not clunky, and the other posters in the thread also agree. I've found Sonic games to be harder to control but that makes sense (given the physics) but hearing that a Mario game - a game that's slower-paced than Sonic, sure, and a series I've grown up with and didn't ever have an issue with the controls, whereas other platformers like Sonic, Crash or Spyro took a little getting used to - is somewhat jarring, as most of us probably use Mario for a yardstick for judging platformers as opposed to Sonic or Spyro.
I was curious about your (admittedly atypical) opinion so I figured I'd ask. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This type of conversation has a fancy name on the Internet - it's called "discourse". It's a fancy word for "conversation" yea but don't worry it's fancy

Like this is exactly why the topic exists, and it's serving its purpose.

I'd argue a lot of the recent opinions have been slightly controversial, though. Seeing a lot of games I like slammed, and I find it odd that we go from games like Superman 64, Bubsy 3D and Brutal Unleashed to Spyro, Crash, Klonoa, Megaman 2 and Metal Gear Solid 5: games that a lot of people happen to like.

I should note that I like Metal Gear Solid V as well, in terms of gameplay it's the zenith of the series. The open-world design, stealth mechanics, and base management all coalesce together into an excellent whole, where collecting excellent soldiers for your base can often dictate your infiltration's path - the open-world design lets you scope things out, gather intel, and then plan a route. I don't even mind the replacement of many cutscenes with cassette tapes, letting you absorb story details while exploring the world at your own pace. The foundations for a perfect Metal Gear game are here.

It's just that the story is garbage and also literally unfinished (not that finishing it would make it not garbage) and Konami is Konami, and Konami is the worst.

fate;stay night.
While I don't mind Vn usually, I really don't like where this really good francise started, expecially for those uncanny sex scenes.
I mean, do you really need to make a mana transfer with "body fluids", and they really must use sperm for body fluids?
I usually don't mind 18+ content or fancervice in videogames,but this one is reeeeealy out of touch

1. Final fantasy xv
- The story got changed but no one seems to realize that everything that was shown in the trailers was never
shown in the actual game and alot of characters got cut out as well which would have made the story alot better.
The story in short is half assed and the director even confirmed this like he didn't care. Personally,i love the characters
but the story development could have been better. Especially with the supposed love interest.


2.Valhalla Knights series
- These games are so boring and shitty and i can't even get passed the first chapter in either
1 or 2. Character creation is hideous , The story plot is typical , The combat system is ..gone
really. It feels very restricted and robotic. Almost like the only purpose of the player is to move your
character around on the battle field.

3. Any sims game
- Maybe i'm being extremely unfair here especially since i own the real Sims 2 & Sims 3 along with
all expansion packs for both but compared to any other platform,it just doesn't capture the basic for
me and i easily get bored.

4. Livid
- An old game that was in development that never saw the light because it had so many problems.
The plot was all over the place and the 7 protags had no real character development. The only character
with a actual story and background was killed off the first hour of the game and from there it was just
needless killings of different characters. I would have loved to work on this game or help with development
in the story department anyways. Unfortunately this game was scraped despite that it had some decent
potential.

So you hate Sims, but brought all the expansion packs for them :/

Speaking of Sims, I can't help but bring up the My Sim series of games on various Nintendo consoles. While I would say the entire series is terrible, I do have to admit that My Sim Kingdom is a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine...