Character Tweaks [revamped first post!]

[Nindo]

And yet they are still unwilling to at least try it. Now, was i truly being stubborn?

WHY THE FUCK JUST NOT HAVE IT APPEAR THROUGH THE SMASH BALL THAN? IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE NOT TOO. DID YOU READ MY PREVIOUS POST? MAKING A NEW ITEM AND STILL HAVE THE INPUT A+B MAKES NO SENSE. BECAUSE IN THE END, YOU WILL HAVE DONE UNNECESSARY WORK. (ya hear that?) UN-FUCKING-NECESSARY WORK. I'D RATHER GIVE THE PLAYER A CHOICE RATHER THAN RESTRICTING THEM FROM A PART OF THE GAME BECAUSE ONE ITEM APPEARED SO NOW THE OTHER ONE CAN'T.

Oh and Koopaul, I'm sorry but STFU. All you have proven to me is that you don't want it in because you don't like it, but you can't even give me a reason as to why we should leave it out.

I dunno, I'll let you decide if you were being stubborn.
Stubborn being defined as: having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something.

Koopaul has given you reasons as to why it should be left out

Look why don't you just have a "Combo Mode" then like "Stamina" or "Coin" matches, you can also have combo matches. Sheesh stop trying to over complicate things.

Over complicating things is a serious issue you have to deal with. If a "mode" or whatever like this is so off-putting from the simplistic nature of smash, many players aren't going to want to use it. Creating various social classes of Smash players is a horrible idea, smash is supposed to be open to all.
As was mentioned by you:

In order to make use of your character your obviously going to have to have knowledge of the assist and combo system.

This very much takes away from the pickup and playability a newcomer has against a fairly seasoned player. You cannot just blow this problem off, it is important to design a game for your INTENDED AUDIENCE, not for yourself. Ok, whoopdedoo, you can turn off the smash ball so that "fixes" the problem right? Wrong, because this serves to alienate players even more. You would have a class of players who can use the smash ball, and those who can't until they go and practice on their own, and thats if they really want to use the item. Has it occurred to you that people might want to use the smash ball, without having to deal with the possibility of their opponent having a leg up on them just because they know how to use the combo thing? As you can see, this is getting pretty complicated which goes straight back to Koopaul's point.

Another point to bring up about it being overly complicated, I'd like to see you say that:

And whats up with the combo would be the same for every character? It WOULD be a different thing for every character. A differant out of the norm combo would happen every time.

and

it will feel seriously awkward to combo around and near impossible to pull off a specific combo.

are not going to cause some seriously complicated precision in the game to make it balanced as possible.

Also, don't even try to say that everybody else is being unreasonable, throughout this whole discussion, those against it have continued to grant concessions so as to find a workable middleground, but noo, you have to have it this way and this way only. Just because you are "giving facts" and "explaining how it doesn't interfere" is not granting concessions to the otherside, its being stubborn for your point of view being the only correct answer.

But you are probably going to sling slews of profanity at me and/or continue to be unreasonable about this.
Taking a poll would seriously alleviate a lot of this fighting.

[Locked Achievement]

Now, was i truly being stubborn?

Of course you were

Heres a few ideas:

Smash ball can allow access to FS or combo
You have only one combo in every game, activated when chosen
Every match has a set target that, when fulfilled, you gain access to the combo (i.e, inflict 100% and knock them off stage to get the combo etc.). This can be either hidden or shown on screen
Perform a combo of 10+ hits (hit ten times with less than half a second (or whatever)) to get it

[Negative-Zer0]

.1 The assist character thing was obviously a separate argument if you actually read the damn post. The assist system was the biggest give away. And the fact that i had an Mvc2 video posted right before. I don't even think you read because the sentence RIGHT AFTER THAT states "this is what i believe the versus series is about.

.2 DO i even have to say anything? I made an essay of a post explain why that middle ground causes many problems.
-making a new item=problems
Solution= don't make a new item.

.3 I love how you only took parts of the post you can argue with. When literally like the post or even a paragraph before that i explain my self. Left out the part where i said that keyboard=difficult. And the fact that gamepads are practically all over the place ala PS360 pads? Its not even as if they are like one frame links or something. Which is why i posted the Link vid AS AN EXAMPLE. Combos like that which are relatively easy to preform, but require an itsy bitsy sum of knowledge of the system. Meaning, you won't have to press different directions violently and insanely quick in order to preform a decent combo.

.4 Like i said, being close minded won't get anyone anywhere, creating ways around the system like making a new item has already been proven false. Why? Because is Restricts you from a part of the game, no creative license, and the fact that if the input would still be A+B, than making a new item would be unnecessary.

Lemme explain something to you Nindo:

Final smashes give you WAY more of advantage than the system does. The fact that they are unblockable makes this part of my argument speak for itself. If someone uses the combo function, however, the other player has a chance to runaway, and use those tricks koopaul stated in the first post of his argument. Not only that, put the player is not invineble, so you have a chance to fight back. NOT ONLY THAT BUT when you have a smash ball, the other player wil be more inclined to running away anyway. Meaning that you are gonna have to find a way to land that combo, or use your final smash, which is the meat of my whole items argument. I don't what precision as i have stated in my other post. I wanted it to have somewhat of a learning curve so it wouldn't potentially ruin the game, and yet still be fun.

The point is is that, i actually thought about what they said in great detail and stated in (suprise!) my other post why they wouldn't work.

Item argument=null and void.
Why? See previous page for full analasys on why.
A little spoiler on whats to come as you read that post. Restriction and choice

Gauge=null and void
Why? Though this would fix most if not all of the problems, this would bring it closer to street fighter than i am sure most people would want it to be.

Own Zone=null and void
Why? Because your putting limitation on something that would be better with no restrictions anyway.
In other words. Your putting limitation on creativity.

These are my views on the middle ground. They bring unnecessary issues that i would personally like to avoid the first time around.

Point of the system: To give the player a chance to be truly creative.

What i would like to avoid:

-unnecessary items that cause more problems in the long run. Yanno, giving the player the freedom of choice?
-Gauge systems that contradict what exactly what people don't want in smash bros.
-Limitations on creativity
-broken combo system
-too hard to preform a decent combo.
-too easy to preform a decent combo.

These seem to be the points everyone seems to avoid when arguing against the system. Or to even, pfft I don't know, try it?
Which is also what i said in (WHAT A SHOCKER) a previous post.

EDIT:

Of course you were

Heres a few ideas:

Smash ball can allow access to FS or combo
You have only one combo in every game, activated when chosen
Every match has a set target that, when fulfilled, you gain access to the combo (i.e, inflict 100% and knock them off stage to get the combo etc.). This can be either hidden or shown on screen
Perform a combo of 10+ hits (hit ten times with less than half a second (or whatever)) to get it

I'll just add this to the restriction on creativity list.

BTW i=I think we are discussing this on the wrong topic anyway. I believe we should take it to "The Engine" topic.

[Dils]

I just have a few questions:

1: Why is the A+B input a must? There are other buttons you know.

2: You said there would be problems having a Combo Ball (or whatever). Why is that? As (with your idea) you can't use a Smash Ball and activate a combo at the same time, why would that be different with a new item? If the item works like a Smash Ball but never spawns when a Smash Ball is around, I can't really see a problem.

[Negative-Zer0]

i'm gonna keep arguing because even though you guys have all but decided on it i still think that it has issues

for one thing, kosheh is right about how this should be a totally different item. for one thing, final smashes are made to be individual supermoves. this would be more or less the same with every character. second, the argument that because its a very powerful move it must be in the smash ball is stupid. the dragoon, hammer, golden hammer, and, to a lesser extent, items like the deku nut or assist trophy. these can all do one hit kills, which is often all a smash ball can do. even if it wasn't a new item, you could incorporate a gauge system which allows you to temporarily enter the combo mode (and maybe perform a final smash once its full)

second, you will want to do more than just making attack chains easier. because smash uses directional attacks rather than the traditional 4-6 button attack system, combos won't exactly be smooth. keep in mind that in the videos, these people have this well practiced and near memorized, making it easy to do A, upA, downA whatever... in rapid succession. in a normal setting, it won't be quite the same. rapidly switching directions like that isn't exactly a natural feeling movement. i dunno, just a thought.

Why would it not be good through the smash ball. Once again, if activation happens upon picking up the item, than the combo would be damn near useless unless your REALLY lucky enough to have the opponent right next to you as it happens and be able to chain an attack. How do you suppose it should activate then, B? That would be overlapping if a smash ball appears.

But why not just NOT make the smash ball appear?

See there is a problem right here, you can't make an extra item for ever function the engine allows, because we would then have to restrict the person from part of the GAME. This is a problem because the person playing the game has no control over what items appear or not. If they want to do a normal combo into a final smash and the custom combo item appears, well woopti friggin doo, your gonna have to wait until someone uses it. When a smash ball appears, the person at least has a choice of whether or not he would like to do a Tanden smash or whatever, or a final smash.

Hence why i said making them have a choice through a smash ball would be practical and NON-RESTRICTING.

And whats up with the combo would be the same for every character? It WOULD be a different thing for every character. A differant out of the norm combo would happen every time.

Directionals being more complicated? The traditional 6 buttons is MORE complicated because the is one attack set to each button, directional, however, simply has you choosing as easier set of moves to memorize to chain together.

Within like the first 5 seconds you know your characters moves, but in 6 button fighters, it takes a LONG time to memorize all of your characters normals and use them to your advantage. Thats WAY more moves to memerize than smash.

Can we at least see the idea in action before making the final verdict? It actually sounds interesting.

-low knock back
-hits only cancel when you attack someone
-low damage
-activation lasts a short period of time ( 6 or 7 seconds )
-actually takes some skill and practice to link together ( not too much however)

*requirements*
-get a smash ball
-press A and B at the same time for activation
-can be activated during an attack
-can't be activated during final smash
-after images to indicate activation.

This would seriously separate us from the pack. A totally unique idea that works and fits into the game ( if done correctly ) could attract more people to this game. The same can be said about how final smashes ruin the game and is out of the spirit, but it didn't.

This is a list of things that i suggested a couple of pages back. I explained most of them in greater detail in my previous post, the one outlined in bold was not.
This was meant for this to be easy to set up. This of course means that it won't be some kind of miricale involved with you landing that combo. Basically, your giving the player complete control over his actions rather than saying "take it or leave it"

Being able to cancel ANYTHING in to ANYTHING really gives the player a chance to be creative and spontaneous. Do you really think that the player will be given this chance when he has to wait for ONE item for this specific function? NO. Smash balls probably appear like 5 times a match. While it may be difficult to preform on a keyboard, in this day and age people have PC gampads laying all over the place. Specifically PS360 controllers.

Getting it through smash ball is the best possible situation due to it making more sense canonically (sort of, orb of infinite power anyone?)
and when discussing the engine of the game. Not only that, but making a new item would be unnecessary work, not to mention that we don't have the creators license to do so anyway.

Any questions?

[Kosheh]

ugh i hate to dissect posts but given the nature of where this argument is going, it makes it seem that's what you want. i'm down with that

The seperate item thing- That causes so many problems its not even funny.

very insightful. can we have actual problems? because this sounds like an opinion to me

The gauge thing- 90% of the arguments against it was it to not be close to a traditional fighter, this would put it close as fuck.

hey wow, i agree here
but this idea we've got here is pretty close to a traditional fighter as-is. why not use an element of the traditional fighter idea an idea we're taking from a traditional fighter?
So you're telling us "BE ORIGINAL" when you're pushing an idea that's not original in the first place.
makes a world of sense.

Lastly- people are seriously trying to pass up a great idea because they don't like the feeling of it. Which is bullshit. In order to design this game, we gotta learns to think outside of the box and not in the "OWN ZONE"

I don't think you even read my post. Either that or you're being deliberately condescending @_@
The OWN ZONE is a result of thinking outside of the box >:/
Part of the challenge of new ideas is that Smash Bros. isn't a traditional fighting game, it's in its own genre. It's a brawler: up to four players fighting on a platformer-inspired map with items and stage gimmicks, and tbh the game sets the bar for all brawlers. By all means we SHOULDN'T be using 2D or 3D flat-arena fighters to base our new-ideas from and if so, the idea has to be heavily modified to work - which is what the OWN ZONE is.

OWN ZONE details

It's a giant circle that covers the map...that works like a big gauge. It starts at full size. Within this zone, your enemies' speed is slowed down and yours increased along with the other perks you've seen in the hack videos.
Now, think of the V-ISM gauge from Street Fighter Alpha 3 or...the P Groove? from CvS2. In those games, you activate the gauge and it starts to deplete. You rush your opponent and pull off a combo where you can infinitely cancel within an allotted time frame. OWN ZONE is like that but...different.
Once you activate the OWN ZONE, you strike a neat pose and the zone blows to full size. It begins to very slowly decrease until you land your first hit...and the more hits you string together, the faster the "gauge"-circle depletes. Once the "gauge" passes through your character, the effect is over and you can just finish off the opponent.
The speed of the sphere depletion is for accessibility purposes and sets the bar for how players want to do their combo Newbies can get a few hits in and do a few smash attacks before the zone passes through them and they finish off the opponent; experienced comboers can rush the opponent, slam out the nice combo they want and finish off the opponent.

Hell i tried to explain it to make it seem as though it doesn't make it interfere with the game too much, so people can't complain about how the spirit of smash is ruined.

And yet they are still unwilling to at least try it. Now, was i truly being stubborn?

hmm
no one's really telling you to not do it - in fact, people are welcome to it now, myself included. Even Koopaul, who was totally against it supports it but has his own thoughts on it.

The best option is to have a separate mode to prevent less controversy. This is a very polarizing thing you must understand.

Having it tacked on to the Smash Ball is foolish.

He's right: It's very controversial. Tacking it onto the Smash Ball makes greater risk for screwups. I know you want it to be an alternative to the Smash Ball, but the goal's to make a Smash Ball alternative, not a Smash Ball replacement.

i have to say though this is turning into a case of the pot calling the kettle black

Spoiler

i actually can't tell if i'm being an asshole at this point. i'm really not? but you're insisting on telling us that an idea doesn't work because you don't think it's going to work without giving sufficient reasoning and when you do you're referencing a totally different fighting game. which kinda paints you to look like a big jerk.
At least use similar games, like Jump Superstars, Konami Dream Mix TV Fighters, Battle Stadium D.O.N. or TMNT Smash Up when you're making comparisons, they're more relevant to the game we're working on

[tsr moderation staff]

Item argument=null and void.
Why? See previous page for full analasys on why.
A little spoiler on whats to come as you read that post. Restriction and choice

it is null and void because it is a very powerful move and only the smash ball can be that? that makes no sense

Gauge=null and void
Why? Though this would fix most if not all of the problems, this would bring it closer to street fighter than i am sure most people would want it to be.

so we can't use this because, despite it fixing every problem, it brings us closer to the system YOUR IDEA IS BASED OFF OF and works well in? what?

Own Zone=null and void
Why? Because your putting limitation on something that would be better with no restrictions anyway.
In other words. Your putting limitation on creativity.

did you even read kosheh's idea?

These are my views on the middle ground. They bring unnecessary issues that i would personally like to avoid the first time around.

the middle ground ideas are fixing the issues in YOUR idea

Point of the system: To give the player a chance to be truly creative.

What i would like to avoid:

-unnecessary items that cause more problems in the long run. Yanno, giving the player the freedom of choice?
how does adding more items reduce freedom?
-Gauge systems that contradict what exactly what people don't want in smash bros.
literally nobody has complained about the gauge idea but you
-Limitations on creativity
what
-broken combo system
-too hard to preform a decent combo.
-too easy to preform a decent combo.

These seem to be the points everyone seems to avoid when arguing against the system. Or to even, pfft I don't know, try it?
Which is also what i said in (WHAT A SHOCKER) a previous post.

i really dont feel like going through your whole post so i'm just gonna deal with the meat of it. but overall, you seem to be throwing flimsy, contrived denials of every idea that isn't exactly like yours moreso because you want it your way than you wanting it the best way possible.

[Negative-Zer0]

i'm gonna keep arguing because even though you guys have all but decided on it i still think that it has issues

for one thing, kosheh is right about how this should be a totally different item. for one thing, final smashes are made to be individual supermoves. this would be more or less the same with every character. second, the argument that because its a very powerful move it must be in the smash ball is stupid. the dragoon, hammer, golden hammer, and, to a lesser extent, items like the deku nut or assist trophy. these can all do one hit kills, which is often all a smash ball can do. even if it wasn't a new item, you could incorporate a gauge system which allows you to temporarily enter the combo mode (and maybe perform a final smash once its full)

second, you will want to do more than just making attack chains easier. because smash uses directional attacks rather than the traditional 4-6 button attack system, combos won't exactly be smooth. keep in mind that in the videos, these people have this well practiced and near memorized, making it easy to do A, upA, downA whatever... in rapid succession. in a normal setting, it won't be quite the same. rapidly switching directions like that isn't exactly a natural feeling movement. i dunno, just a thought.

Why would it not be good through the smash ball. Once again, if activation happens upon picking up the item, than the combo would be damn near useless unless your REALLY lucky enough to have the opponent right next to you as it happens and be able to chain an attack. How do you suppose it should activate then, B? That would be overlapping if a smash ball appears.

But why not just NOT make the smash ball appear?

See there is a problem right here, you can't make an extra item for ever function the engine allows, because we would then have to restrict the person from part of the GAME. This is a problem because the person playing the game has no control over what items appear or not. If they want to do a normal combo into a final smash and the custom combo item appears, well woopti friggin doo, your gonna have to wait until someone uses it. When a smash ball appears, the person at least has a choice of whether or not he would like to do a Tanden smash or whatever, or a final smash.

Hence why i said making them have a choice through a smash ball would be practical and NON-RESTRICTING.

And whats up with the combo would be the same for every character? It WOULD be a different thing for every character. A differant out of the norm combo would happen every time.

Directionals being more complicated? The traditional 6 buttons is MORE complicated because the is one attack set to each button, directional, however, simply has you choosing as easier set of moves to memorize to chain together.

Within like the first 5 seconds you know your characters moves, but in 6 button fighters, it takes a LONG time to memorize all of your characters normals and use them to your advantage. Thats WAY more moves to memerize than smash.

Can we at least see the idea in action before making the final verdict? It actually sounds interesting.

-low knock back
-hits only cancel when you attack someone
-low damage
-activation lasts a short period of time ( 6 or 7 seconds )
-actually takes some skill and practice to link together ( not too much however)

*requirements*
-get a smash ball
-press A and B at the same time for activation
-can be activated during an attack
-can't be activated during final smash
-after images to indicate activation.

This would seriously separate us from the pack. A totally unique idea that works and fits into the game ( if done correctly ) could attract more people to this game. The same can be said about how final smashes ruin the game and is out of the spirit, but it didn't.

This is a list of things that i suggested a couple of pages back. I explained most of them in greater detail in my previous post, the one outlined in bold was not.
This was meant for this to be easy to set up. This of course means that it won't be some kind of miricale involved with you landing that combo. Basically, your giving the player complete control over his actions rather than saying "take it or leave it"

Being able to cancel ANYTHING in to ANYTHING really gives the player a chance to be creative and spontaneous. Do you really think that the player will be given this chance when he has to wait for ONE item for this specific function? NO. Smash balls probably appear like 5 times a match. While it may be difficult to preform on a keyboard, in this day and age people have PC gampads laying all over the place. Specifically PS360 controllers.

Getting it through smash ball is the best possible situation due to it making more sense canonically (sort of, orb of infinite power anyone?)
and when discussing the engine of the game. Not only that, but making a new item would be unnecessary work, not to mention that we don't have the creators license to do so anyway.

These are the problems that you desire. Making it a separate item REALLY fucks the game and the person over.

Though the machanic is taken from a fighting game, it doesn't mean that we have to morph it into a fighter. This would cause some serious controversy.

Why it shouldn't be a separate mode is the fact that it doesn't warrant its own mode. As a function, however, it can work perfectly.

In order to make it run smoothly, i suggest that some start-up frames should be incorporated.

EDIT: I'm sorry but it feels like this post is completely ignored when i read some posts above.

Tuna, MY idea was to incorporate this from a fighter into smash, while making it it's own thing. Not morphing it straight up into a fighter. Do you know how much complaining there would be in this forum if the gauge was Incorporated?

EDIT2: Koseh's idea in the own zone was to combo within a restricted area, which is a limit. The only limits that I personally think works best is the time limit.

EDIT3: i see a misunderstanding. By close to street fighter, i meant TOO close.

[tsr moderation staff]

These are the problems that you desire. Making it a separate item REALLY fucks the game and the person over.

Though the macanic is taken from a fighting game, it doesn't mean that we have to morph it into a fighter. This would cause some serious controversy.

Why it shouldn't be a seperate mode is the fact that it doesn't warrent its own mode. As a function, however, it can work perfectly.

In order to make it run smoothly, i suggest that some start-up frames should be incorporated.

it REALLY doesn't. if it activates automatically like a starman, then you just have to run to your enemies and combo their asses. simple as that. this would be even easier if we do the own zone idea. i honestly don't see any other way it could work as an item but that seems perfectly viable and useful, after all, thats how the hammer and starman works and they aren't broken in any way.

The mechanic working as a super really wouldn't work well unless we did add some more fighter mechanics. Leaving out the final smashes altogether would cause more controversy than adding a gauge to balance things out.

why doesn't it warrant its own mode? you really aren't making good arguments here, you are just saying what you want and claiming it is the only way this will work.

edit to respond to your edit:
considering how many fighter fans there are here, probably not that much. do you realize how many people would complain if you got rid of final smashes?

[Negative-Zer0]

These are the problems that you desire. Making it a separate item REALLY fucks the game and the person over.

Though the macanic is taken from a fighting game, it doesn't mean that we have to morph it into a fighter. This would cause some serious controversy.

Why it shouldn't be a seperate mode is the fact that it doesn't warrent its own mode. As a function, however, it can work perfectly.

In order to make it run smoothly, i suggest that some start-up frames should be incorporated.

it REALLY doesn't. if it activates automatically like a starman, then you just have to run to your enemies and combo their asses. simple as that. this would be even easier if we do the own zone idea. i honestly don't see any other way it could work as an item but that seems perfectly viable and useful, after all, thats how the hammer and starman works and they aren't broken in any way.

The mechanic working as a super really wouldn't work well unless we did add some more fighter mechanics. Leaving out the final smashes altogether would cause more controversy than adding a gauge to balance things out.

why doesn't it warrant its own mode? you really aren't making good arguments here, you are just saying what you want and claiming it is the only way this will work.

edit to respond to your edit:
considering how many fighter fans there are here, probably not that much. do you realize how many people would complain if you got rid of final smashes?

When have i ever said to remove final smashes. I want this to be activated through a smash ball by pressing A+B together. An alternative. That was my whole argument on choice.

I REALLY dont think we should discuss it here. Lets move it to "The Engine" topic.

[tsr moderation staff]

or start a new topic


i.e. the entire point of this project having its own board

[Negative-Zer0]

You mean a poll. If i make a poll every one is gonna have to be on level ground. Meaning that every one else is gonna have to explain extensively how they would want the system to work.

[tsr moderation staff]

well, atm we have about 3-4 ideas: yours (you can choose between an FS and this when you get a smash ball), the seperate item idea (it works like a starman or hammer), the gauge idea (there is a gauge which fills up when you do stuff or get a smash ball which allows you to go into combo mode or, if it is full, do an fs), and the extra mode (like metal brawl or lightning brawl) and on top of that we have to decide whether we are using the own zone or not. so we would need a topic to decide how the combo mode is activated and a topic to decide how it works.

[Negative-Zer0]

We also need to discuss and compromise the balance of this system and such. If this system makes it in to the new demo, this could speed up work on the project due to interest.

[Alpha Six]

Holy fucking shit you guys. This is so retarded.

We have 3 different ideas for this. Runouw already said he can apply these and see if we like any of them, so stop fucking talking about this. My god.