New Super Mario Bros. 2

[Koopaul]

I think its foolish to call this a "bad game" even if it is the same thing it will still be polished ,well built, and engaging.

There's a difference between an unoriginal game and a poorly designed bad game.

My complaints are that it is uninspired and lazy. Not that it will be "bad" I'm sure it will be good for what it is.

Nintendo always makes well built quality titles. Just not always original ones.

[Keychain]

Exactly. When was the last time there was a truly bad Mario game? (a very long time ago)

[Vipershark]

That still doesn't mean you should blindly go into games "just because it's Mario"

I like NSMB and NSMBW but I can only play them in really short spurts because after a couple of levels they've gotten boring and repetitive.
Yeah, the mario formula is rock solid and Mario games can still be fun, but they're just so...
these days they're dull and lifeless and they all feel really formulaic and everything feels copied and pasted.

I'm not calling this game bad, especially based on nothing but four screenshots. It will probably be fun (and as I said, I'm probably going to get it) but what I -can- see from these four screenshots is that it's just more of the same.

Nintendo might like to play it safe, but that's a problem because they aren't just playing it safe, they flat out aren't providing new experiences.

edit a lot later: what do you consider to be the last bad mario
smb2 shouldn't count since it's a reskin of another game and neither should mario's time machine or MiM since they aren't first party nintendo games

cause personally i'd probably say that's galaxy since I havent played NSML3D yet

[Kriven]

There's more that goes into making a game good than having a solid engine. Games are a culmination of the arts, and when one is lacking, it drags the whole product down.

[Vipershark]

Exactly.
Just because a game might be fun doesn't make it good.

[Ton]

I haven't read every page of this, so I might be reading the vibe of this topic wrong, but...

For me, the last Mario game that felt joyous, fun, engaging, and heartfelt until recently was Mario 64. After that I'm not sure what happened. Mario Sunshine was ok, and I like it more than the Galaxies. NSMB was a nice attempt, but didn't quite do it for me.
NSMB Wii was the most fun I've had with a Mario game since Mario World. They did everything right. It's strange how NSMB and NSMBWii are the same series, but one can feel so alive and vibrant, and the other is just forgettable. If this game is more like the Wii version, I'm all for it.

As an aside, I feel the same way about Zelda. The last great ones for me were Ocarina and Majora. Zelda is a little easier to pinpoint the problems in though. It stopped being about exploration and slowly moved into the territory of linearity. In the earlier Zeldas you could tackle things in any order and find secrets (Ice Rod in LttP, Power Bracelet in LoZ, etc) that let you do things sooner or faster. Now it's "Beat dungeon W, get item X. Use item X to get to dungeon Y, where you find item Z. Use item Z to reach dungeon A..." Everyone now has the same Zelda experience.

The Metroid and Pokemon games, on the other hand, have improved as time has gone by (I think. Though I haven't played Other M). And DK and Kirby are having fun returning to their roots and doing what is tried and true.

A bit of a tangent, but I think you get what I mean.

[Vipershark]

I haven't played Sunshine in forever (i really need to replay it) but I feel that the last legitimately good first party Nintendo games were on the Gamecube.

Sunshine, Melee, and Windwaker were all great. TP came at an awkward time between the Wii and Gamecube and while I think the GC version is better, it just doesn't compare to Windwaker. (Metroid Prime is second party so I don't count it but it wasn't good anyway. Zero Mission is the definitive Metroid game for me.)

From there, Nintendo's just been in a downward spiral for me. They've completely lost their magic and everything feels forced and lifeless now.

But even though it's relevant, think this is derailing a bit too much into general Nintendo chat instead of NSMB2 chat, so

[NICKtendo DS]

Good graphics and sound make a game attractive.
Good gameplay makes a game fun.

A game with horrible graphics may be fun to play, but unattractive, which means people are less likely to play it.
A game with horrible gameplay, but great graphics is more likely to be played, but makes the buyer regret his/her purchase, which might lead to poor sales of the same series in the future or overall cancellation.

Graphics and gameplay are both important. Looking at NSMB2, the graphics are bland and repetitive, which influences the experience. Nonetheless, the graphics are not horrible and the gameplay may balance it out. To be honest, SM3DL was a let down for me, because it was more 'I have to' than 'I want to', ruining valuable replayability and for a 3D Mario game not to have alternative paths, not even on the friggin maps!, it's a bloody shame. The whole 3D with 2D gameplay was mere sugarcoating for something that'll rot in the shelf once you're finally done.
I did replay NSMBDS from time to time. Destroying the flagpole at the end of 1-1 hardly gets old. I suspect that despite the same old exterior, it's going to be enjoyable. It's going to be 'I want to'.

[Kriven]

A game with good gameplay and unappealing graphics isn't fun. I just don't give a shit if the world isn't engaging.

@Tonberry: Your argument is invalid because everyone knows that the N64 was one of the greatest things to happen ever. Of course nothing will be that good ever again.

[Gors]

not sure if joking, but it's tonberry's opinion and opinions are relative (aka they change between people). It's rude to deny what the other thinks just to egoistically put your point of view as right.

[Kriven]

Very joking.

"Disregard opinion to push yours as right" was not a thing because my comment support Tonberry's.

[Ninspriterx]

Personally what I think is a huge factor is the innovation jump. From Super Mario World to Super Mario 64, and a Link to the Past to Ocarina of Time the jump was more than landing on the moon. That's why those games are settled in our brains so deeply. We yearn for a new giant leap but every new game is only a baby step forward.

As for what I expect for NSMB2: Franchises will get to the point where it may become more fan-service, than innovation. Nintendo is abusing the nostalgic button but any one mad at the fact would probably calm down if Wario or Peach was playable.

As of now there's nothing about it is known. I am very interested to see what the game is really about.

[StarSock64]

Sorry, I was running out of time yesterday so I said something a little hasty. I want to clarify, I didn't mean to call the game "bad," it's just that even if you enjoy it, that doesn't mean that it's not flawed.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying it! But at least be able to acknowledge its flaws so that you can make a fair judgment on whether or not to get it, and to understand the criticism instead of wondering why anyone would say anything bad about dear precious Mario. If you decide to get it, that's perfectly fine. But don't have a "no matter what" attitude, demand to get good quality for what you paid.

The time and money I spend on one game is time and money that isn't being spent on another. I have to be picky, and Nintendo has to compete for my money. No, it's not all about -me-, I'm saying this is a decision that everyone has to make. It feels like they have a sort of "we're gonna make money no matter what we do so we'll just rely on nostalgia and the same old gameplay" mindset. It's lazy, it's stagnant, it's boring. If they stop moving forward, then I have no reason to continue purchasing their games.

There needs to be a soul, a spark, something new to keep it interesting. It doesn't have to be a huge departure, just give me something to appreciate. It's not the worst thing in the world right now, but I want it to improve. It's really not hard for me to take my money elsewhere.

[Koopaul]

I disagree with Vipershark about the Wii.

The Wii had an incredible list of games that I greatly enjoy.

Not a single game I regret buying... except the Olympic games, but that was from Sega so it doesn't count.

This is my first big complaint from Nintendo in a long while. So I don't want people thinking I'm bashing them just because of this ONE game.

[Ton]

@Tonberry: Your argument is invalid because everyone knows that the N64 was one of the greatest things to happen ever. Of course nothing will be that good ever again.

My heart still belongs to the SNES.
Maybe it's just that Nintendo has spent all its time innovating when it comes to hardware, but not with their software? Games have become by-the-books instead of a broader experience with every game? It's easy to discount that opinion when things like Mario Sunshine/FLUDD and Mario Galaxy exist, but... they feel more like new ideas with Mario in their place instead of Mario games. Maybe that's what I mean when I say Mario 64 was the last game that got it right for me? It was still platforming with minimal gimmicks. I dunno.
Then we get into the discussion of gimmicks vs innovation, and nostalgia vs next-gen stuff and it gets nebulous, so take what you will from my raving.