C+C And Style Discussion (Split from Nayr's Thread)

[Kopaka]

I'd be inclined to agree with Meta. When I joined TSR I came here to receive C+C for my work. I was pretty confident that I'd get some good replies and I did - albeit not what I was expecting. People challenged my art and while it did all seem negative, you sometimes have to take a real neutral stance to it and look into what they really mean. One of the things I try to keep in mind often is to never be emotionally attached to what you do. It makes it really hard to take in feedback because it feels like they're attacking whats precious to you.

If anything, supposedly "negative" feedback should be a motivator, it should spur you into thinking "Alright, it got me down, but it's okay, lets show them what I got," and you do it and people are generally happier that you've taken what they've said in consideration and are making an active effort to improve yourself. People may present their opinions in a way that seems harsh, but in reality, they just want to see you better yourself.

[Koopaul]

by tSR i meant the Spriting and Pixel Art forum.

Oh I see. Still, maybe we should make a new topic. There are other things that I'd like to discuss.

[UnHolyDarkth]

Everyone has a point here and let me explain why for Nayr:

First, Koopaul has a point. People sprite for passion and they love spriting. Not everything has to be for video games. Some can be for other sorts of media. If this person loves FE style, then he'll keep doing FE style. Some may tell him to switch between styles but he loves this style so much and he'll keep doing it.

But Second, the opposing side has a point aswell. As much as you enjoy your passion for FE style, it'll be done to death before y'know it. This is why artists improve and expand to make their own unique styles of spriting. Fire Emblem sprites are cool but if you keep doing this for the next 1-3 pages, the thread will be ignored and drop dead completely. You've been learning and making Fire Emblem sprites and Thats good. Now you can expand from there and make your own custom spriting style or try a different style.

And Third, i love how people say "This is a spriting forum all based on critique". Well there will be critique in most spriting topics (for the elite pixelists who want to help new spriters) but there is also comments which are kind/descriptive and boasts up the confidence of one spriter to do more spriting if he wishes to continue. If you want to critique, go ahead. But if you want to comment on it if the sprite looks nice, feel free to do so. This is just a community which revolves around all things sprite-related. Not everyone will come here to critique

[Vipershark]

And Third, i love how people say "This is a spriting forum all based on critique". Well there will be critique in most spriting topics (for the elite pixelists who want to help new spriters) but there is also comments which are kind/descriptive and boasts up the confidence of one spriter to do more spriting if he wishes to continue. If you want to critique, go ahead. But if you want to comment on it if the sprite looks nice, feel free to do so. This is just a community which revolves around all things sprite-related. Not everyone will come here to critique

This is the wrong mindset to have, but that's another discussion for another topic.

[UnHolyDarkth]

And Third, i love how people say "This is a spriting forum all based on critique". Well there will be critique in most spriting topics (for the elite pixelists who want to help new spriters) but there is also comments which are kind/descriptive and boasts up the confidence of one spriter to do more spriting if he wishes to continue. If you want to critique, go ahead. But if you want to comment on it if the sprite looks nice, feel free to do so. This is just a community which revolves around all things sprite-related. Not everyone will come here to critique

This is the wrong mindset to have, but that's another discussion for another topic.

Agreed with you on that part but still.. It shouldn't be all about critique.

Anyways, can we just move on and wait for Nayr to post a couple of sprites or will this be completely flamed with a debatable discussion?

[RokuGurin]

critique does not entail complements. this is something that comes up often, where people think that criticism needs to include more "helpful" phrases like "good job," "nice work," or "not bad." nobody needs to pepper their criticisms with things like this because it doesn't say anything critically about the work in question, and thus is pointless praise that never helps someone improve their work.

Dude, I was making an example. I wasn't implying that we should shower him with complements. But do you think he came here for critique on his sprites or to be told to stop and try something else? And who's to say he won't move on once he feels he's mastered the Fire Emblem style?

the important thing is to realize that people come to tSR to improve as (pixel) artists and expand their abilities; by sticking with only one style, nayr is limiting himself creatively. if that's what he wants to do, then cool! take it somewhere else.

I believe the most important thing to realize is that people are entitled to do what they wish. You might think he's limiting himself, but as I and many others have said, he may decide to broaden his horizon when the time is right for him. So leave it be. And that last part you said really irks me. "Take it somewhere else?" Just because Nayr isn't SUPER AMBITIOUS about being THE GREATEST PIXEL ARTIST IN THE WORLD then he's not worth the time? Honestly.

I'm defending him because pushing him won't do anything. He posted this topic to get feedback on his FE sprites. In the end, it's his decision whether or not he wants to try different styles. This arguing is pointless and we should just leave Nayr to do his thing.

[Previous]

Well everyone, I'm back and I have to say that I'm not happy with what is going on here. I thought I made it clear that this topic is not the right place to have this "discussion" yet the lot of you - including fellow moderators - decide to go on with the derail. That's not what I'd consider a job well done. Especially considering the OP, Nayr, wasn't even here and didn't have a part in the talk while the same arguments got repeated over and over.

I'd prefer not to see any post after this one that isn't by Nayr or comments on the sprites he posted (not the sprites you would like him to post). Thank you very much.

---

Edit. Of course, that doesn't counts for this split thread here, but the original topic.

[Keiang]

I was typing up a thing but I think I realized the core issue, so I'm going to post about that instead.

This post, and others like it, aren't C+C in regards to the spriter's work. They're C+C in regards to the spriter himself. Following this advice would make him a better spriter, but I don't think Nayr was asking about that. He only wanted advice on his work, which this post doesn't really contain.

One could argue that if he only wanted that, he shouldn't really be on tSR, but I don't think such an opinion is going to help the tSR survive in the long run. It'd be like a gaming forum populated entirely by the "games are art" crowd.

[Mutsukki]

A lot of users that are on TSR don't even sprite. By all means he should be here, as far as I know, TSR is a free forum for anyone who wants to post. What I said about him not being in TSR, is the showcase of his stuff. But that's being dealt in the other thread

[StarSock64]

bolded for tl;dr

I thought about it, and I came up with a few different scenarios

Our usual situation is:

someone posts edits as a learning tool, rather than as things that are supposed to be used for something. Or, even if they are for something, perhaps they have the desire to become a better artist and should hold off on focusing on producing. We tell them that, while they may -do- edits if they so please, there's no reason to -post- said edits because there's very little to comment on. This is because there is usually very little of it that is custom (if any at all) and so any comments either end up as "that's how it is in the original" or "you could learn this actually properly if you did customs," or there's so many custom parts that they may as well have done a full custom. Edits also, of course, show very little effort.

This situation is what we're used to, and we responded accordingly. It's even in the rules:

3.Take it Easy with Edits/Recolors/etc.
Some people would like to post edits, splices, frankenmons, tracing, recolors, and that is fine. Just hold your breath, take a shot of the nearest alcohol you can reach and explain him that the nature of said issue sometimes wouldn't benefit him, or that he should avoid do these because x reason you might want to elaborate (kicks in someone's face aren't an elaborated argument). If OP insists on them, then let a mod deal with it and if that doesn't work, just leave the thread alone. DON'T FUCKING POST SHIT ON IT because doing so just bumps it on top of other more worthy threads.

Now, Nayr showed us
-splices, which are edit-level
-customs, which amounted to a combination of eyeballing and pattern memorization, and may as well be called edit-level

As a learning tool, it's next to useless to ask for C+C for edit-level sprites.



However, if these were meant for something (which I am not even sure of, in this case), then the situation would be more like

"I'm using these for a fangame, is there anything I should tweak before using them?"

I was not trying to "force" Nayr into becoming an artist he didn't want to be, I was trying to get him to post art that is actually relevant to the purpose of the board, while stating my opinion that he should try other things, if he would want to become a better artist (and, at that time, I had missed the post where he already stated he didn't want to branch out...).
Since the splices and customs weren't random, useless amalgamations (FE games need random villagers, there were existing characters put into the style, etc.) I guess there's not as much of a reason to discourage their posting and they may have relevance (though there's still not much to say to help).

Even if they're useless or ridiculous or just plain bad, I suppose that's not a reason to discourage their posting, so long as they're solely for production. I mean, if we have someone come in with bad M&L fancharacters for their game, we should probably tell them nobody wants to play a game with an overused style and that their sprites are ugly, etc. C+C regarding art techniques is easy, but C+C regarding style is harder to make arguments about...In the case of refusing to change style, they're probably best ignored. I guess they can make something ugly if they want to, or keep trying to get better at a style that doesn't really matter. Refusing all C+C, especially those about art techniques rather than style, is of course not okay, since that's the point of the subforum.



If they weren't meant for either of these scenarios
then that's just showcasing and kind of awful and that shouldn't be allowed.



So I suppose in the future we'll need to learn the poster's purpose for their edit-level sprites

I really don't feel comfortable telling someone it's okay to purposely stagnate their art, and I won't. I might even comment on the futility of it, because that's just my opinion. People should be allowed to post what they think, it doesn't matter if the poster didn't ask for it. But harassment and unnecessary aggression is another thing. It's all about wording, I guess.


Oh.

Actually I just looked in the rules again

This Board's main purpose is to help people work on their development as pixel artists/spriters.

It's even in the rules. This board is to help people become better artists. Not to "develop their sprites" but to "develop themselves as pixel artists/spriters". And Nayr said he didn't want to become a better artist. You could say he wanted to become a better FE sprite artist, but like, what is there to improve on? His skills are practically pseudoskills. There's a lot of eyeballing and learned behaviors, and there's not much room to learn anything more in that particular style.

I think the staff has some thinking to do, about this here wording.

[Keiang]

Actually I just looked in the rules again

This Board's main purpose is to help people work on their development as pixel artists/spriters.

It's even in the rules. This board is to help people become better artists. Not to "develop their sprites" but to "develop themselves as pixel artists/spriters". And Nayr said he didn't want to become a better artist. You could say he wanted to become a better FE sprite artist, but like, what is there to improve on? His skills are practically pseudoskills. There's a lot of eyeballing and learned behaviors, and there's not much room to learn anything more in that particular style.

I think the staff has some thinking to do, about this here wording.

I didn't remember that part of the rules, but I agree 100% with your logic. What the issue boils down to is whether the staff wants the community to focus on sprites or spriters, assuming they didn't have this in mind when they chose that wording.

Also, I got bored looked up on the Wikipedia article for constructive criticism and found it kinda interesting:

Techniques of constructive criticism aim to improve the behavior or the behavioral results of a person, while consciously avoiding personal attacks and blaming. This kind of criticism is carefully framed in language acceptable to the target person, often acknowledging that the critics themselves could be wrong. Insulting language and hostile language are avoided, and phrases are used like like "I feel..." and "It's my understanding that..." and so on. Constructive critics try to stand in the shoes of the person being criticized, and consider what things would look like from their perspective.

I know you guys feel that throwing in stuff like "good job" is bullshit, and I kind of agree, so I guess I'll just kinda leave this here and see what you guys think.

[Previous]

This Board's main purpose is to help people work on their development as pixel artists/spriters.

Look at the words "main purpose". This pretty much leaves the possibility of other related purposes. Weird huh?

If you ask me, people should be free to showcase their works, edits, recolours, whatevertheyhave. Other users are free to comment and explain why they probably should not do them et cetera paule paule. However, everyone should stay respectful and rude attitudes are not okay. Don't be penetrant, don't force them. If they disagree, that's it. No nead to rage out, no need to feel offended, accept it and move along. Once noobe replies to the things they post, they may realize nobody cares. In case people keep replying, oh look, there's interest. I honestly do not see a problem there. Starting arguments reiterating the same point over and over does not convince people.
As far as I've seen, the forums are not getting flooded with bad edits and recolours lately so I don't see what the fuzz is all about.

Furthermore, I personally do not see where the problem is when someone decides to focus on a style. Everyone should be free to make what they want to make, regardless of whether it may help them with their artistic development in the long run or not. Everyone can give advice, but it still is up to them to accept it or not. Everyone had to decide for themselves what's best for them. Not everyone has the same ambition or aims.

Regardless of anything. What even happened at Nayr's Archive? He was posting his sprites, some of them edits, alright. Some people liked to see them, some commented, re received criticism concerning them. So far, everything alright. Some mentioned he should consider doin cutsom work, too. That's fine. He said he didn't want to. Sad, but alright. Accept it, deal with it, there's worse. Give him time, let him do his FE, one day he may be fed up and move on to customs. From what I've heard, many spriters started with edits and moved to customs only later, right? Don't rush new people just because you have years of experience already. Don't freak out about edits just because you have seen so many in your time. Give new people time to develop. Telling them how they can progress faster is goof, really, but forcing them is not. Sometimes, you need to make a few experiences yourself before you can grasp their concepts. People are different and understanding someone elses reasoning is always complex if not even impossible.
If you think someone is incredibly stubborn and stupid and whatever and upsets you, report the post and let a mod handle it, please.

Long story short. If someone comes here to get comments on the sprites he does want to work on, he should be free to do so and should not be scared of with three pages of derailing on whether or not he should do something else but FE when that is what he wanted to get comments on. It's fine to mention advice once, twice, maybe a third time, but don't beat them dead with it.~




In the end, one can never know, maybe we're all wrong and his FE mugshots will help him to become the best M&L spriter of all times.

[Gors]

Previous' post is spot-on.

As I said before, someone who doesn't want to be helped will not accept any help. Leave him alone then, go spend time with someone who is willing to accept critique instead of getting frustrated with show-off people. We're tSR, we help people improve. But we aren't the perfect method of teaching ever. Not everyone that joins tSR will understand our criticisms, as obvious as it can sound for us. It's sad, but it's the truth.

I know that seeing someone with potential waste it by doing the same things over and over is terrible, but by giving him c+c and sugest him to try something else, you already did your job. You won't get bonus points if you convince them, and that's fine.

[Koopaul]

I can't believe for so long I never noticed that written there... I really wish someone would rewrite that! Afterall a lot of people who post Customs in the Submissions board end up getting their topic and sheet moved here.

For those people we should help them build better sheets, not try to make them "better spriters". that was not their goal and why should it be?

I know that seeing someone with potential waste it by doing the same things over and over is terrible, but by giving him c+c and sugest him to try something else, you already did your job. You won't get bonus points if you convince them, and that's fine.

Heh funny I feel the exact opposite I see a lot of talented here make wonderful pieces of art and think... What a waste. They could be using their talents for something productive. But you don't see me going, "Hey Meta that's nice but you should be making sheets!"

[Previous]

This Board's main purpose is to help people work on their development as pixel artists/spriters. Another purpose is to serve as a form of quality control for those who plan on submitting their custom work to the website, for example. Therefore, as a regular poster [...]

I hope this addendum covers it, mostly. As the Custom Sprite Guidlines on the submission board already state, our Spriting and Pixel Art section also serves some sort of quality control. May it be for the site or for people who want to use their sprites in games or comics or you-name-it. While some want to improve in general, others may rather want to improve the pieces at hand.