Depictions of Women in Gaming (and other related issues)

[Kosheh]

Hello, hi - what a fine proper topic you gentlemen are discussing.
However, I seem to be slightly confused on one of your speaking points, Koopaul.

I think the solution to the problem is to make new studios that make more games with better female protagonists. Which is slowly starting to happen.

Can you give us any examples of "better female protagonists" that would suit this statement?

I actually think characters like Samus and Lara Croft were fine prior to their "reboots" - both characters were strong, defining female roles. Sure, Lara Croft was a goofy caricature but at her core, she really seemed like a woman capable of holding her own.

I'd say their recent reboots (I'm referring to Other M and the newest Tomb Raider) actually made them worse protagonists, painting them as weaker, more vulnerable versions of the characters they once portrayed.

And that's still pandering...just to a different demographic :/

[soulcaliburfan]

As I agree that a good character should show their personality in how they appear, I do think that having a few overly objectified characters is fine in small doses. Definitely when the game comes off as a satire to begin with (Fat Princess Etc.)
As Ivy has been getting more crazy with her outfits, her character is quite solid. I have a feeling that Namco just has no way of showing her progress considering that she cannot physically age. Sex objects will exist for a long time, even if it is completely unintentional... Even with all of that back story provided, some people will still only see the tits and/or muscles. Sometimes it cannot be helped. You also have to consider a few other factors in the design choice as well. (It is difficult to draw somebody and make it look like they had traumatic times just from the design alone without making them overtly gothic. Etc.)

Also about Lara Croft's reboot, it was supposed to show her before she became what she would later be known as. Nobody should start as strong and capable as they will later become. This includes male and female people/characters.

[StarSock64]

I HOPE PEOPLE READ MY BIG TEXT WALL ON PAGE 1 BECAUSE I PUT A LOT OF WORK INTO IT

As Ivy has been getting more crazy with her outfits, her character is quite solid. I have a feeling that Namco just has no way of showing her progress considering that she cannot physically age.

This...doesn't make any sense. What type of progress are you talking about? What do revealing outfits have to do with her eternal youth? What do revealing outfits have to do with progress? Why would this be any more effective than using her alternative outfits?

Sex objects will exist for a long time, even if it is completely unintentional. Even with all of that back story provided, some people will still only see the tits and/or muscles.

Well, sure, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be minimized.

[soulcaliburfan]

I said it already, Namco is having a tough time showing progress in her character due to no aging. So they have no solid way of showing said progress in the character design.

Without going out of your way to make characters not wear anything even remotely revealing, it is tougher than just saying don't make them sexual.
It would be like putting every character in sweatpants and and ratty t-shirts.

[StarSock64]

I said it already, Namco is having a tough time showing progress in her character due to no aging. So they have no solid way of showing said progress in the character design.

Again, I ask you to define "progress", and to explain how progress correlates with designing outfits with less clothing over time. You didn't actually say anything. Like, I actually don't get what relationship you're making here. Please explain in detail.

Not to mention, laziness on the artists' part is not a valid excuse, nor one you should accept as a consumer.

Without going out of your way to make characters not wear anything even remotely revealing, it is tougher than just saying don't make them sexual.
It would be like putting every character in sweatpants and and tarnished t-shirts.

I've mentioned this already, but she has alternative 2P outfits that serve her purposes better. They don't have to go out of their way to do anything, because the outfits already exist. They just aren't used as the main ones, for really artificial and out-of-universe reasons.

That last bit about putting every character in sweatpants and t-shirts is extremely faulty because nobody is saying:

make characters not wear anything even remotely revealing

Like, nobody made that point at all to begin with.

EDIT:
wait I think I get what you're saying

Okay, what I’m confused about is why there needs to be indication of Ivy’s “progress” in the first place. I'm assuming by "progress" you're referring to the passage of time. Say you had a fighting game where there was a vampire. Like, Dracula, or something. You wouldn’t design his outfits so that they became more revealing until you finally hit boxer shorts just because he’s eternally young. You would simply give him different outfits that fit his character.

The audience really doesn’t need an indicator of progress. You don’t need an indicator of time because you get that from the rest of the context. It’s not like wearing less clothes is an indicator of time, either. And it’s definitely not an indicator of her heightened skill. Eternally young people in real life certainly wouldn’t mark their birthdays by getting more revealing outfits. It doesn’t make sense. In most sequential games that change outfits each time, they simply get a different design. That’s completely sufficient, making trends like removing clothing unnecessary.

[TomGuycott]

This has always been my favorite costume for Ivy:



They don't even have anything remotely close to that anymore in the later games, which is really disappointing for a variety of reasons.

[Lemonray]

I HOPE PEOPLE READ MY BIG TEXT WALL ON PAGE 1 BECAUSE I PUT A LOT OF WORK INTO IT

I did. And I suppose I rather agree, I mean, I never bought into that whole check your privilege business to begin with and I don't think anyone else should be made to either.

[soulcaliburfan]

Okay, I didn't imply that making her outfit less revealing made her progress as a character or progress over time... I was just stating showing progress as a character in design alone is difficult as it is. Take that plus a character they have no idea what they want to do with and then make that character not age at all due to plot. Anyone would have complications showing progression in that character through design alone. Definitely after the time skip that the story took.
The only thing I can pick up from the story that would even come close to explaining some of her outfits would be the following; her sword is also cursed, causing her sanity to wane over time as well. It isn't truly enough to say, yay slut it up, but she isn't all there.

Now about the outfits. Her main outfit in 5 is a lot less slutty than in 4. And we still seem to be going off the 4 outfit. Also, you as a player have the option to customize the character's wardrobe with a variety of options or just making a character yourself. So even if her outfit was the same as it was in 4, why does it matter if there is a skimpy option as one of the options? As was said here earlier, there are plenty of people that are flashy in our world and the customize option plus other costumes makes that point almost entirely moot.

The point of not making anyone remotely revealing is supposed to restrict the chance of it being viewed as sexual. I never stated that anyone was automatically against anything revealing.

[Crappy Blue Luigi]

Gosh I really hate reading, but I'll try my best. I hope everyone else does too! Because text walls.

this post is so good that thanking it isn't enough

however this post is so long that quoting it is too much

if you somehow did not read angie's incredible post, please go do that.

[Kriven]

I feel like characters and franchises created specifically as fanservice aren't really an issue... that's what the character is for, and that's fine.

It's when a character that already exists is taken and made into a different character wearing the "skin" in order to appeal... hrm, let me start again.

Like, I don't mind characters like Judith from Tales of Vesperia being essentially fanservice. That's what she's there for. But when characters like Princess Peach are taken and given the same personality as Judith, I don't like that. I think that's an issue. It twists a character into something they aren't. Soul Calibur was mentioned earlier, and I agree with the evolution of Sophitia's costumes being an issue. And Ivy's diplomat costume not being a standard is really weird and out of character, and that's something which has bothered me from day one.

While I don't like that the franchise contradicts itself, I also feel like it's intended as male fantasy. I mean, as long as the characters attitudes/histories/whatever don't clash with what they're wearing, I don't see why being perverted is an issue.

That's kind of how I feel about it. if there are things created to pander to a male audience, let them do that. It's when things are twisted and warped in an attempt to pander that there's an issue.

[Gors]

Addendum to my first post: i am aware that sexism is a thing that exists, and it does suck. However, i think that you shouldnt give females MORE rights than males. If they seek equality, then the outcome must be equal. One side having more right than the other is shit.

You can see into this with more transparency if you consider people as... People. Harming and bellitling a group of people is bad. Giving privileges to a select group while not doing the same to another is also shit. Imagining such unbalance in a worldwide scale sure is catasthrophic.

So, I behave by treating everyone equally, be them of any gender or kind. The correct step to end a preconception (sexism, racism etc) is not to give the opposed side gifts, its treating them equally, i would say. That should suffice, and in the long run, you would have made a great positive impact on society. Treat people for what they are in personality! Is the person chill? Befriend him! If not? At least respect him!

This counters the rather acidic way most feminists deal their shit, like angie said. Like i use to say, you could be right. But if you express your opinion like shit, then listeners will take it as shit. And this behaviour will spread shit all over the people, and the issue will never be solved, because people show it as shit and because of that people think its shit. VICIOUS SHIT CIRCLE

And this directly applies to games, and any entertainment media ever. Because entertainment media is commanded by people, and they have their own views about this topic. I would say that if you spend more time designing the character, making it less like a doll and more like a human, things could be 99% avoided. There are times when risky designs are ok because of context, but it really depends.

OBVIOUSLY since i create characters and put them into games, i will tend to fill it with varied characters (i am not good at writing characters though so bear with me), because while fanservice games that cater to a specific group of people exist, i would rather make it a thing that can be easily enjoyed and related by everyone.

[Vipershark]

I know this is kind of repeating the same point again, but

If you didn't read the entirety of StarSock64's post on the first page, don't even post in this thread until you do so.
I'm serious.

I don't mean to even try to sway the discussion in a certain direction or anything like that, but she presented points from BOTH sides of the argument in a clear and concise way and there is absolutely no excuse for not reading what she had to say.

Things have been more or less fine in this thread up until now, but having seen how these types of threads have gone in the past, it's important that everyone (on both sides!) knows how they should approach these types of things and that was the correct way to do so. It's okay to get angry, but if you bring that anger into this discussion and attack people with it or derail the thread, I will slap the hardest warning on you that I can for it.

That being said, if you guys are capable of having this type of discussion without breaking the forum again, then I won't stop it from happening. Don't let it reach a point where I'll have to shut it down.

[psychospacecow]

I think people care too much. People get offended when something they don't like is portrayed in media. Some want censorship of the art, which is a problem. Some people never really think, "what if this is like this intentionally, to represent something," etc.

There's a lot more that we should be concerned about in games, like the actual game.

[StarSock64]

Okay, I didn't imply that making her outfit less revealing made her progress as a character or progress over time... I was just stating showing progress as a character in design alone is difficult as it is. Take that plus a character they have no idea what they want to do with and then make that character not age at all due to plot. Anyone would have complications showing progression in that character through design alone. Definitely after the time skip that the story took.

Oh, I see, I guess I misunderstood. That's why I was asking for clarification

I still don't think that it should be a problem though. Not to sound like a broken record, but they've already shown that they can make a variety of P2 outfits. I'm pretty sure there are other ageless characters in the series as well, if I'm not mistaken? They just get different outfits. It shouldn't be difficult for professionals to make different outfits and change up the design sufficiently without having to resort to something like giving her less clothing.

The only thing I can pick up from the story that would even come close to explaining some of her outfits would be the following; her sword is also cursed, causing her sanity to wane over time as well. It isn't truly enough to say, yay slut it up, but she isn't all there.

I guess that's kind of fair, but I don't really buy it. Like, if that was clearly the intention of the designers, then that might be cool? I'm not gonna lie, a deteriorating psycho sounds kind of interesting. But that's not the vibe I really get from her... With that vow of chastity, it seems directly conflicting, even. I suppose there's room for doubt, but since she's in a game with Taki's nipples, I'm inclined to think that the designers just wanted to put some boobies in their game and didn't think too hard about what it says about the characters.

Now about the outfits. Her main outfit in 5 is a lot less slutty than in 4. And we still seem to be going off the 4 outfit. Also, you as a player have the option to customize the character's wardrobe with a variety of options or just making a character yourself. So even if her outfit was the same as it was in 4, why does it matter if there is a skimpy option as one of the options? As was said here earlier, there are plenty of people that are flashy in our world and the customize option plus other costumes makes that point almost entirely moot.

Google image search shows me it's true! I think the point still kinda stands though. My intention (I can't speak for others) isn't really to denounce Ivy as a character, but to use her as an example of some things that happen in the bigger picture. It's great that they took a different direction in 5, but 4 still happened, and that sort of thing is still happening in other games that don't have customization.

The point of not making anyone remotely revealing is supposed to restrict the chance of it being viewed as sexual. I never stated that anyone was automatically against anything revealing.

I reread your message and I realize I totally read it wrong the first time, sorry. I don't know why you would have to go out of your way to try not to make a sexualized outfit though. I just don't know what about that is more difficult than making a normal one, from an artistic point of view. Even if they were harder, they already exist for her P2, so it doesn't require any extra effort for them at all.

I feel like characters and franchises created specifically as fanservice aren't really an issue... that's what the character is for, and that's fine.

I agree with the base of this, but I am pretty concerned with the amount of franchises that are like this. Rumble Roses can exist if it wants to, but where are the games with good female characters to balance it out? That's where encouraging new ways of thinking in creators and future creators comes into play. I'm sure some people do, but I don't necessarily want to force creators to stop making things with fanservice*. I want there to be other cool stuff that I can enjoy in addition to all that stuff, and to get people to think about how they can make such things.

*I really hate out of place or distracting fanservice though. That's not cool.

That's kind of how I feel about it. if there are things created to pander to a male audience, let them do that. It's when things are twisted and warped in an attempt to pander that there's an issue.

I think I mostly agree with this. Changing characters like that drives me crazy, urgh...

Hm...I think I can respond to psychospacecrow, but I think I'm going to wait until later. I have to leave pretty soon.
It's really tempting to make points about societal reflections and media and influence and that sort of thing, but that's so hard to talk about. Everyone has a different experience, it's all really abstract and I don't know of too much concrete evidence.

However, I think it's possible to see why it would be good to have better depictions even if you flat out don't believe that media has anything to do with the way women are treated. I kind of like to take that approach, despite my belief that, well, it does. More on that later!

[psychospacecow]

I mean it more as, this being a medium of art, there's a certain freedom in story telling and such where people just have to accept it. There's a lot of factors that affect every game, and no doubt, gender and its affinities are one of them, but I don't see that as a problem.

Edit: Without that acceptance, we start to see censorship. That is a problem, even to those that instated it whether they realize this to be the case or not. It only sets the stage for what society finds taboo of them to be bastardized like what they did.

Soul Calibur is a case of a series that doesn't quite know where its headed. It can't really progress because of its fighting game nature. I know I was pissed when it came to Soul Calibur 5 replacing a lot of my favorite characters and making Kilik a randomized character. Yet, I understand that the story was more or less suffering from a one story complex, especially considering that most of the games had everyone with the same objective more or less, making storylines difficult. Fighting happens, Nightmare is still a thing, Siegfried is still a thing (though sometimes as Nightmare), no one dies, then 5 comes along and pisses off half the fan base because they tried something different. I agree that character designs have suffered given the time these games have gone through, and though I understand some, and others I do not, it really does not change whether or not my day is going to be alright. Personally, I just miss Talim.