Toad, Toadette, and Gender

[Vipershark]

I'm not; there are a couple of other posts in here that I'm referring to with that as well, though I didn't quote them alongside that one.

The point still stands, though. If you guys remain civil, feel free to talk about this all you want.

[Sengir]

You can talk about this all you like if you remain civil to each other but if this thread is just going to devolve into "fuck you, I don't care what you think" (from either side) then I'm going to close the thread.

but i do care what people think

i care that people think that genderless characters dont belong in mario
thats a very negative thing

i thought it'd be a good thing that nintendo is moving forward and being more inclusive

if you think that'd be a bad thing then i think you are a mega anus
but i do care

i dont want people to be mega anuses

[Kriven]

I don't understand why Nintendo can't create a new character to suit that personality, though? Even refurbishing Yoshi or Birdo like what has already been mentioned can make sense, but Toad and Toadette have always had genders.

[Vipershark]

You can talk about this all you like if you remain civil to each other but if this thread is just going to devolve into "fuck you, I don't care what you think" (from either side) then I'm going to close the thread.

but i do care what people think
i care that people think that genderless characters dont belong in mario
thats a very negative thing
i thought it'd be a good thing that nintendo is moving forward and being more inclusive
if you think that'd be a bad thing then i think you are a mega anus
but i do care
i dont want people to be mega anuses

You can think somebody is a "mega anus" all you want but that doesn't require you to flip out on them or otherwise be a mega anus in return just because they disagree with you. If you can't have a discussion without being a jerk, you don't belong in the discussion.

[Sengir]

but Toad and Toadette have always had genders.

ok but thats the whole point of the link. nintendo says otherwise

[Marth]

I just don't see why nintendo has to go through the trouble of inventing a new character when Toads/toadettes are entirely malleable and easy to work with. Birdo is a prime example. Birdo was "male" and appeared "female" that character was established as "male" in the "literature" but they were perfectly malleable and repurposed. The same can be done with these two. It would be more effort and even a waste of resources to invent a new character for this purpose when they have two perfectly good ones right at hand. Two might I add who have never really had uber significance to anything, and can easily be modified for any implementation. It's not like they suddenly said "Peach is a man" and "Mario is woman", that I could see causing a bit more of a stir. But this isn't what's happening.

[Shade]

Well, look at me completely going against my last post. Gj Shade.

Blank/Sengir/whatever you prefer, looking through the thread again, not one time did anyone say that genderless characters don't belong in Mario or any game for that matter. All that has been stated this entire time is that this whole scenario could be misunderstood and that past Mario titles have given Toads a gender. That's it, no personal hatred toward people or characters that don't identify as either a male or female. 

[Marth]

It's simply a matter of a change in dynamics. Yeah fans may be a tad confused by the new convention but it's not dogmatically changing. Toads aren't suddenly the new goombas or anything. They just are now genderless. It's different from the past but as the Marioverse continues to evolve change is inevitable and as fans have in the past they will accept whatever changes come their way. Not to mention they don't really have a choice. They can pretend it's not there, but it's there.

[Kriven]

The difference with Birdo/Toadette here is that (and working with the specific characters, not the species) Birdo prefers to be referred to as a girl... and is referred to as a girl. There's one mention of her being biologically a boy, but in all instances Birdo is referred to by her preferred gender. Why should a character who has always been referred to as a girl suddenly become genderless?

I'm not arguing that toads should have explicit reproductive parts, or anything like that. All I'm saying is that Toadette wears dresses, has pigtails, and has been called a "she" since her inception. By removing that, we are literally taking away part of Toadette's identity. They could even create a new gender-fluid toad-species character, but Toadette already identifies as a gender.

[Marth]

Potentially they ave gender identity issues? There isn't much to go off of. The character is now genderless. Maybe they have no gender and simply dress as they feel. Maybe all toads are toadettes and they change their appearance as they feel fit. Maybe Toadette has been assigned a gender they are not comfortable in, or they question frequently. I mean you can spin this a thousand and one ways but in the end the character is a genderless anthropomorphic mushroom.

[Sengir]

Blank/Sengir/whatever you prefer, looking through the thread again, not one time did anyone say that genderless characters don't belong in Mario or any game for that matter.

but there has been a resistance to the idea of genderless toads
like grasping at straws

"they can't be genderless! oh my goodness! what will the kids think!
somebody check the manual for super mario pinball for gendered pronouns!
there has to be a way out of this!"

its like a rush to disprove koichi hayashida's statement and it reeks of desperation.

---

but Toadette already identifies as a gender.

no, she has a "gendered appearance"
thats what started this thread

[Kriven]

but there has been a resistance to the idea of genderless toads

no, she has a "gendered appearance"
thats what started this thread

Toads as a species can be as genderless as they want. My only complaint is with taking away Toadette's gender.

And no, she doesn't just have a "gendered appearance", she has a gender identity within the context of the game. Characters, in dialogue, refer to her as female. She does not correct them, and instead chooses to wear that gender.

Edit: Toadette is definitely a fill-in for all the established toad characters... I'm not just talking about her specifically.

[Marth]

Toadette was an established female. Toad was an established male. Contextually in any game they have held trivial roles. I still am not seeing the issue here with repurposing the character. Even in significant roles characters can be repurposed or shift gendered if that's what the creators decide.

Here is a real life example, which I do have permission to post; Sengir WAS an established male, they are NOW an established female (Thoen).

[Sengir]

And no, she doesn't just have a "gendered appearance", she has a gender identity within the context of the game. Characters, in dialogue, refer to her as female. She does not correct them, and instead chooses to wear that gender.

see this is the "grasping for straws" i mentioned
the producer (he's the guy making the game) for captain toad (that's the game) said that toadette has a "gendered appearance" but no sex
we dont have the original japanese, but you could check what word he used for "sex" (since sex and gender can be seen as synonymous to translators)

[Kriven]

How is supporting my argument with in-world context any more or less straw-grasping than using a brief answer in a short interview as the foundation for an entire position?

Toadette was an established female. Toad was an established male. Contextually in any game they have held trivial roles. I still am not seeing the issue here with repurposing the character. Even in significant roles characters can be repurposed or shift gendered if that's what the creators decide.

Here is a real life example, which I do have permission to post; Sengir WAS an established male, they are NOW an established female (Thoen).

Toadette hasn't become Toadster, though... she's still calling herself Toadette and dressing like a girl. That makes her Toadette the Girl until, within the context, she decides not to be Toadette the Girl.