UNDERTALE

[MoneyMan]

koh, why are you making all these assumptions and passing judgement on the game without even playing it

like seriously it seems like you're looking for reasons why it wont be good in spite of what others say before you even boot it up

[Koh]

No one's saying the game will be bad xD. It most certainly is overhyped as of right now, since it's quite literally everywhere. The moral of the story is to never buy into hype. Ever. It more often than not leads to disappointment from expectation. Especially when you consider how the most bland things like Flappy Bird end up all over the place. Go in informed by reading unspoilery reviews and such from both ends of the spectrum, but also go in not expecting anything, and work from there, unless you want to recreate my Ocarina of Time experience, heh. Monickers of Best Game of All Time and Ever are unattainable, so ignore any statements with claims like that, and most likely the reviews too, since they'll clearly be biased.

I will get this during the Steam Black Friday sale, when it'll undoubtly be on sale. Then I'll plow through it and give it a ProJared style rating, of pros, cons, what could be improved, etc.

[TomGuycott]

I wasn't going to say anything the first time you said it, but you keep making this comparison and I just wanted to say one thing:

Flappy Bird's attention / praise / hype is not comparable to Undertale's, other than the fact both of them HAVE attention, praise and/or hype.

Flappy Bird's attention is the result of a tremendously large group of people finding addiction in a game that, at it's core, is relatively dull, yet still addictive. Undertale has a much smaller group of people (Regardless of how much attention this game is getting now, it pales in comparison to what attention Flappy Bird got) trying to raise awareness about a game that has a lot of time, care and attention put into it's gameplay and story, but is small enough to fall under people's radars if its fans weren't so vocal.

For example, I love this game to death now, but if CBL hadn't posted the demo almost a year ago, I'd have no idea it even existed, and I had no idea it even released until he reposted it here this month.

Anyway, it's still okay for you to not buy into this game right now. I just really wanted to say Undertale =/= Flappy Bird

[Koh]

You're absolutely right, it's not Flappy Bird. I guess I should've been more clear with what I was trying to say with that.

People make things go viral all the time, and the quality can be anything. Bad, mediocre (like Five Nights at Freddy's) or good. I've learned not to trust that kind of hype, not just from Ocarina of Time, but also from the distinct lack of this happening to games that are really good and acknowledged as such, but not as wide spread (hidden gems), such as Terranigma or Lufia II. The internet has the power to make truly good things known (which Undertale may be, I'm not saying anything about the quality of the game itself yet, until I play it), but it simply doesn't most of the time. Cave Story went viral, but LaMulana did not (though it was at least popular enough to spawn a remake and sequel). Gotta make way for dat Goat Simulator and Flappy Bird, son~

So in the end, the distrust stems from both what is made viral, and also what isn't made viral. Can't trust the Internet when it comes to that, lol.

[recme]

Then I'll plow through it and give it a ProJared style rating, of pros, cons, what could be improved, etc.

dude, nobody is asking you to do this. i doubt people will give a shit about what you have to say about it :p

like, i know all the popularity is bothering you and stuff, but cant you just let people enjoy the game?? this game isnt really all that popular, despite your claims about it being overrated. i actually found out about it through this thread and tumblr. other than that, i dont really hear much people preach about it. youre sorta blowing things outta proportions.

[Koh]

No one is saying they can't enjoy the game XD;. All that's being said is steer clear of hype for any game, lest you be sorely disappointed with your eventual experience of the thing.

As an aspiring game developer myself, I can't play something and not review it critically and fairly. You play things for entertainment (or indirect entertainment in some cases, like unlicensed Chinese games), but as a developer, you also play them to see what sort of ideas you can take from it to improve your own works, or as examples of what NOT to do in a game (Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde NES). You personally may not care about what I'd type up in a review on its Steam page or whatever, but others would appreciate a thorough review that looks at the thing from different angles, to help them make a better judgement on a possible purchase, or at the very least, look at things in a way they've not before.

[MoneyMan]

the problem comes when you use terms like "hit and miss" and assume you're not going to be connected to the characters just because the art isnt anything fancy.

the assumption that something is "overhyped" kinda also goes with the assumption that its praise isn't justified. and even if you dont enjoy the game personally, who are you to say that the praise given by other people isn't legitimate? and yeah, again, this game isn't anywhere near mainstream. it's got the attention of some bigger names, but it's pretty much enjoying humble popularity from a group of people who played the game and really enjoyed their experience. it's far from "viral."

[Koh]

Hit and miss applies to several aspects of any game.

Some people may not like the trial and error tedium of games like I Wanna Be the Guy for example. Some people don't like the anime appearance of some media, and prefer something more Western. Some people dislike chiptune music, and would rather have more defined instruments. Hit and miss is not a term of negativity, but a term of caution.

Overrated doesn't have to imply that everyone is out of their minds with how they experienced the game. It can also mean that the rating or large acceptance of something can lead a customer astray, making them believe the thing is more than what it really is.

I think you guys are just getting defensive because you've already played the game and liked it, which is fine. But bear in mind I'm not reviewing the game yet, these are all things just from face-value information, the people, and just general topical things about gaming and game design c:.

[Kriven]

I think people are getting defensive because you like to state things as objective... you seem to have it in your head that certain design choices are objectively inferior to others, and games which do not tick all the "Good Game" boxes for you personally are bad games, which is wrong.

[Gors]

I think you can't and shouldn't try to hold 'intellectual' arguments when all you know about the game is its graphics. This is specifically true when you like to analyze game design.

The sprites are really simplistic. The character doesn't even have any animations other than walking. However, to analyze a whole game because of its 'superficial presentation' is really shallow. As you play it, the sprites start to make sense, and honestly, the game is really pretty - it's much more than it appears to be.

I suggest playing it before saying "lol I'm tired of shit sprites" for a change - I think you'll be surprised.

---

Also, as Kriven said, you seem to have a really solidified concept of what a "good game" is, which is laughable. It's not been just once that I felt you were judging some of the aspects as objectively bad when it is not, and well, some good games will not intersect your concept of "good game" because of different tastes.

It's wise to know that there is no absolute bad game design if there's thought put to it - Which I think Undertale is a prime example of.

[Kosheh]

guys guys give it a rest. it's pretty simple what koh is trying to say: everyone really likes this game, but in the eyes of a developer everything is different.
see, when you're a developer, you can't simply say "wow, look at this innovative take on a popular genre that is receiving critical acclaim from every direction" - nooooo.
when you're a humble developer who, of course, is working on games of their own and constantly analyzing other games of the medium to make sure that your game possesses unique and original aspects of their own and carefully looking to avoid the tropes of every other single game out there, of course you're gonna be skeptical about the new cult classic title prior to playing it!

seriously, as a budding game developer, i'm reading the features of this game and i am absolutely disgusted

Existing features:

- Fighting is wholly unnecessary: negotiate your way out of danger using the unique battle system.
- Time your attacks for extra damage, then dodge enemy attacks in a style reminiscent of top-down shooters.
- Use the format of a video game to tell the story: traditional fourth-wall breaking tropes such as "SAVING," "EXP," and "LV" are an intergrated part of the game's world.
- Obligatory puzzles. Lots and lots of obligatory puzzles.
- Original art and soundtrack brimming with personality.
- Captivating story with an emphasis on humor.

Planned features:

- Become friends with all of the bosses!
- Hilariously bad dating sim segments!
- Seriously, you can literally have a robot husband.

i'm sorry. i'm with koh here. i don't care how charming the "original artwork and soundtrack" is, it looks and sounds like all the other basic "retro" filth i've seen millions of times before. you're not fooling anyone, mister toby fox. these "goofy" approaches aren't anything special - you're just stringing a bunch of funny things together for some cheap laughs, an adventure of guffaws and ha-has. i mean just looking at this feature list, i can find all these things by doing random searches on TV Tropes within an hour!
and a robot husband? what. how is that going to be remotely practical in an RPG where the game is telling me that i shouldn't fight anything. wtf

oh and one more thing who in their right mind is going to buy this, especially for ten dollars.
ten dollars. what kind of price point is ten dollars. any developer in their right mind would be charging at list $15 for a new title. is he trying to make ANY money here? like, come on - ANOTHER classic case of steam fees screwing over the developer here.

EDIT: I just went to go buy the game because as soon as I was about to post this, literally my entire steam friend list said "don't do it. why don't you play this game first before you knock it" and then i was like "I guess you're right"

The Steam store is down. Thank God. The powers that be are trying to tell me something.
Ten dollars and a clever take on a popular, niche genre by some American asshole just isn't enough to win my over heart here.

EDIT EDIT: my friend just said it's like earthbound and shin megami tensei's weird lovechild with chronic flatulence. sounds interesting....but nah. i saw the kristen and comic sans fonts in screenshots.




very unprofessional, especially in the indie gaming arena. i bet he didn't even discuss it the rights to use the Kristen font with Broderbund.
And Comic Papyrus? COMIC PAPYRUS. do i really need to say anything here?

[Koh]

Lol Kosheh, you never fail to make me choke on whatever I'm currently eating or drinking. If I die, i'm comin' after you :C.

This game wouldn't be the first game I thought was graphically unimpressive, but still enjoyed. Cave Story fell into that category...the lack of outlines make the characters blend in when they cross over some things, and it looks ridiculous sometimes. But the game played so solidly, it was hard not to be hooked.

I've never once said that can't happen here. The only thing I've said the past page is to not buy into the hype of games, and go in not expecting anything, to prevent yourself from being disappointed. But everyone seems to be glossing over that XD.

[Kosheh]

Lol Kosheh, you never fail to make me choke on whatever I'm currently eating or drinking.  If I die, i'm comin' after you :C.

This game wouldn't be the first game I thought was graphically unimpressive, but still enjoyed. Cave Story fell into that category...the lack of outlines make the characters blend in when they cross over some things, and it looks ridiculous sometimes.  But the game played so solidly, it was hard not to be hooked.

I've never once said that can't happen here.  The only thing I've said the past page is to not buy into the hype of games, and go in not expecting anything, to prevent yourself from being disappointed.  But everyone seems to be glossing over that XD.

That's the thing. Everyone's pretty much saying that it's the next Cave Story. Except as opposed to raw platforming with solid mechanics, it's a game with an innovative take on the JRPG genre (with dodging attacks being fun little WarioWare games, or ACTUALLY HUGGING your enemy into convincing him to not fight you and to just be your friend) and the results of your actions ingame actually make you think...because the game remembers the choices you previously made for granted and throws them back in your face later on. This game makes you feel glad. This game makes you sympathize with its characters. This game actually makes you feel like shit to the point where you have to put the game down for a good half-hour after realizing what you just did. To pixels!

And it's more than just buying into hype. Really! Toby Fox isn't making underhanded deals with gaming magazines (though if you look on Steam the gaming news' reviews only highlight glaring criticisms despite getting high scores is hilarious) and everyone who's approving of the game. Hell, a number of people on the site have already played it and are saying "This game is fucking great, if you're not playing it, what's WRONG with you?!"
Actually, most of those reviews actually feel bad about sharing "too many details", and the condition that most people are playing it are THEIR FRIENDS actually saying "YO DUDE I FUCKING OH MY GOD I LOVE THIS GAME IT'S THE BOMB SHIGGIDEY HOW ARE YOU NOT PLAYING THIS? OH YOU DONT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY THIS WEEK? BRO I GOT YOU JSUT SSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHUTTHEFUCKUPANDPLAYTHIS"

I mean, I can see the skepticism - but the game even tickles Tumblr's fancies - you know, the community that's quick to call judgement on anything even remotely offensive. There's nothing to be offended by, and if there is, I'm pretty sure the game's clever enough to quickly retrace its footsteps.  

My friends on Skype, people I follow on Twitter, hell - this topic, have pretty much confirmed that I really don't have much that I have to doubt about this game. I felt the same exact way, honestly (but uh, the difference is that I'm just hella frugal lmao) but then after seeing this game's $10 price tag - like, why the hell not? It's probably the first game I've picked up for MSRP on Steam, admittedly - but it sounds like it's gonna be the best damn ten dollars [and a few hours in front of a monitor] that I've spent in my life. I, too, want to find out if I can pet a dog too much.
Basically, take that same dopey plunge you took into Doukutsu Monogatari (dont hide it thats what us real nerds call it)
because you're probably not going to regret that plunge. And if you do, just...be even more skeptical next time.  
 
We're not suggesting you legally change your name to "Dinkbelle Higginbottom" and consider changing your sexual orientation to "potato chips" - well, those are really huge decisions that shouldn't be taken for granted anyway. Just uh, y'know. Give Undertale a shot. Sorry there's no demo but you might just start shoving the game into other people's faces too once you do that playthrough...and then through several more playthroughs until you're up to your Mercy playthrough

(though honestly I was a little bummed steam was down this morning and it just ended up making my previous post perfect)






(and if you're on the fence about spending ten dollars because you were burned in the past before over like FEZ or some dumpass overhyped game and you're just hella frugal and wanna wait until the Steam fall sales, uh...it's cool, we understand. or at least I do)

[Koh]

You know, Steam is still down for some reason too. What the heck are they doin', havin' a tea party?

Well, I was gonna buy it now, since I recently accepted a commission and just got paid, but...looks like it'll have to wait until tonight :I.

[Koh]

Okay, so I've been playing it and got past the first boss fight. Naturally I'm going to try a pure pacifist run. Here's something I immediately don't like about this game.

Spoiler

It takes too long for any real feedback for being a pacifist with bosses. After the first few ellipses, anyone would just assume that's not working and try other things, which in the beginning, all you can do is fight or show Mercy with more ellipses. I accidentally ended up killing Toriel the first time, because of a critical hit I think, when I was just trying to check if I had to weaken her fiirst, before any of the mercy started working. Because of that, reloading and finally getting past it, I got berated for something I had no real control over. That's bullshit.

But other than that, it's okay so far. I can see the quirkiness people were talking about. Music seems a bit odd though. It's not bad or anything, but it seems to not pick a side at all. It sounds like it wants to be chiptune, but then the next track throws in higher quality instruments. "Can't pick one, so why not have both?"