You guys remember Kokisami, made by Saijee?

[GrooveMan.exe]

>Dart: [Offline IM sent 15h and 16m ago] the people at PT are never pleased
>Dart: [Offline IM sent 15h and 15m ago] they only look at the bad points, most of which are usually impossible to accuratly judge by just looking at the trailer

Or maybe the lel design is an important part of a platformer, and he should take the time to make that aspect not suck? Dunno, just throwin' that out there.

[Vipershark]

I told Dart that, and he basically said:

What are you talking about? There was no final level design in that trailer at all. That was simply a representation of the environments in the game, but not exactly how the levels will look. The levels that actually appear in the game will look similar and have similar backgrounds and textures and stuff, but the ones you see in the video aren't even close to what the final level will look like.

He was telling me that that's why it's a trailer. He said that he has to focus more on making it look interesting and fun rather than correct, because he has to draw an audience. He then said that even Zelda TP's trailers had bad level design in them, but that wasn't the case in the final version of the game, now was it?

[Raytheon]

isn't a trailer supposed to look as good as or better than the game itself to sell the game to people.

[Dazz]

Except of cource he isn't trying to sell it at this time - he's trying to show the project isn't dead.
I still say that the level design aspect is important, and there's a fair few issues I see with some animations, but for the most part a half decent 3D engine.
I think with enough elbow grease this could work out.

[Geo the Fox]

Wow, it's like I'm really playing Brawl!

Except with uninteresting characters, excusably worse graphical quality, horrible level designs, and with everyone wanting to be a furry. Anime furries.

I was never interested in saijee's game, and still am not.

btw guys check out this AWESOME new song I made
http://www.mediafire.com/?2gyqodd24mn
© me, don't steal

[Kosheh]

アｃツアｌｌｙゲオ
ドエｓンｔｂラｗｌｐァｙィケアキｒｂｙガメ

shit

actually geo
doesn't brawl play more like a kirby game
like, oh i don't know

kirby super star?

[Vipershark]

btw guys check out this AWESOME new song I made
http://www.mediafire.com/?2gyqodd24mn
© me, don't steal

laughing so hard at this

[Geo the Fox]

アｃツアｌｌｙゲオ
ドエｓンｔｂラｗｌｐァｙィケアキｒｂｙガメ

shit

actually geo
doesn't brawl play more like a kirby game
like, oh i don't know

kirby super star?

dude

even one of the cutscenes is jacked from brawl

seriously.

Can this guy get any less original?

[Skink]

even one of the cutscenes is jacked from brawl

The most original game ever.

SSBB gameplay, SSBB cutscenes, and furries.

[Chutzpar]

They're not even furries, they're those kawaii sugoi ^_____^ pseudo-furry things

which are arguably even more retarded than furries.

The models themselves are pretty okay looking but the character design is fuggggg.

[Vipershark]

unfortunately I'm starting to agree with you guys about how this won't be original, etc

(5:04:26 PM) Ultimzer: dart
(5:05:17 PM) Ultimzer: just thought you should see this for yourself
(5:05:17 PM) Ultimzer: http://www.spriters-resource.com/communi...6#pid75066
(5:052 PM) Dart: i dont want to

(5:058 PM) Ultimzer: just look at it
(5:06:04 PM) Dart: why?
(5:06:21 PM) Ultimzer: this is why people were saying that you should be more original
(5:068 PM) Ultimzer: just look at it
(5:06:55 PM) Ultimzer: if you won't listen to what people are saying, their opinion won't inprove
(5:07:04 PM) Dart: I could only imagine it is more complaint's that only show up because again, I was a bit rushed at making the "trailer"
(5:07:15 PM) Dart: that's really all they have said before
(5:07:27 PM) Ultimzer: http://i43.tinypic.com/mn27uw.png
(5:078 PM) Dart: what is it?
(5:07:42 PM) Ultimzer: check it out
(5:07:49 PM) Dart: I don't want to
(5:07:55 PM) Ultimzer: dart
(5:07:58 PM) Ultimzer: seriously
(5:08:02 PM) Dart: just say what you want me to get
(5:08:10 PM) Ultimzer: if you don't listen to the public opnion then nobody will want to play the game
(5:08:22 PM) Ultimzer: it's not about you "rushing" the trailer or anything
(5:08:41 PM) Ultimzer: it's about your game being original
(5:08:42 PM) Dart: well, I do listen
(5:08:47 PM) Dart: and it is
(5:08:51 PM) Dart: because
(5:08:53 PM) Dart: again
(5:08:57 PM) Dart: that can be exclaimed
(5:09:06 PM) Dart: that i was really on the peak of the dew date
(5:09:14 PM) Dart: and it was rushed as part of the trailer
(5:097 PM) Ultimzer: did you even look at it?
(5:09:41 PM) Dart: yea
(5:10:11 PM) Ultimzer: there were other posts before that saying how stuff looked exactly like brawl
(5:10:55 PM) Dart: so?
(5:11:03 PM) Ultimzer: even if the trailer wasn;t supposed to represent what the game will actually be (which I still don't understand because that will make people even morem confused) then you should show us how the game actually is
(5:11:19 PM) Ultimzer: no trailer crap, no nothing
(5:111 PM) Ultimzer: just a sample LIVE video of you playing something
(5:117 PM) Ultimzer: you don't even have to release a demo
(5:11:50 PM) Ultimzer: make a short video of you running around in the game
(5:12:01 PM) Ultimzer: cut out anything that will ruin story elements or whatever
(5:12:13 PM) Ultimzer: just show YOU playing the game in real time
(5:121 PM) Dart: either way, it's not really going to resemble the finished idea round enough
(5:12:41 PM) Ultimzer: *sigh*
(5:12:44 PM) Ultimzer: that doesn't matter
(5:13:02 PM) Dart: you don't get it do you
(5:13:07 PM) Ultimzer: if you want people to stop comparing your game to brawkl, you'll have to show them how it's different
(5:13:16 PM) Ultimzer: you haven'
(5:13:27 PM) Ultimzer: t released anything that shows otherwise
(5:14:01 PM) Ultimzer: all this avoiding a release is just making people want to play your game less
(5:14:17 PM) Ultimzer: like I said, something ANYTHING that we can use
(5:14:29 PM) Dart: hold on, let me speak
(5:144 PM) Ultimzer: okay go ahea
(5:14:52 PM) Dart: see the thing is, that I'm trying to make a new more efficient engine for the game, I have talked to the people at GMC about this
(5:15:07 PM) Dart: I am indeed listenting to people's opinoins
(5:15:13 PM) Dart: just other people
(5:15:16 PM) Ultimzer: :/
(5:15:25 PM) Ultimzer: and what are they saying
(5:15:59 PM) Dart: I descirbed how the original idea of Kokisami would be a bit of a mesh of elements from differeant types of games
(5:16:19 PM) Dart: platformer, beat-em-up, RPG, ect
(5:17:01 PM) Dart: and we came to the conclusion, that it would overall be more enjoyable, if instead of stuffing them together, dividing them into parts, this really let's me have many advantages
(5:17:19 PM) Dart: thing is, there will be about 3 games of kokisami, that have the exact same story, the first story,
(5:17:20 PM) Dart: but
(5:170 PM) Dart: it will varry here and there, and
(5:179 PM) Dart: become more pronouced progressivly
(5:17:55 PM) Dart: the first game will be mainly about the platforming and shooting elements of the game
(5:18:17 PM) Dart: the second will be more about combat
(5:18:26 PM) Dart: and the third will be turn based role playing
(5:18:59 PM) Ultimzer: wait a sec
(5:19:08 PM) Ultimzer: so instead of your original idea of different games
(5:19:10 PM) Ultimzer: you're going back
(5:19:16 PM) Ultimzer: and makeg the SAME GAME OVER AGIN
(5:19:18 PM) Ultimzer: 3 times
(5:19:26 PM) Ultimzer: with different gameplay in each
(5:19:29 PM) Ultimzer: what
(5:19:54 PM) Dart: that's the idea
(5:20:11 PM) Ultimzer: what kind of sense does that make
(5:20:18 PM) Dart: in reality, the first thee games, will have no actual sequalism
(5:20:56 PM) Ultimzer: so you're basically doing like the naruto games and making a zillion different game types that all follow the EXACT SAME STORY
(5:212 PM) Dart: I would not know, I don't play naruto
(5:21:57 PM) Dart: However, the point of this, is expansion
(5:23:05 PM) Dart: in that the story is not moving forward, but outward, giving me many more posiblities
(5:240 PM) Ultimzer: honestly I don't think that people really want to play the same game times with only minor gameplay differences
(5:25:24 PM) Dart: umm, that's not what i said
(5:253 PM) Dart: the game play is REALLY differeant
(5:257 PM) Ultimzer: I know what you said
(5:25:44 PM) Dart: but the story is only a slight variation
(5:25:45 PM) Ultimzer: but my point still stands
(5:25:48 PM) Ultimzer: same story
(5:25:51 PM) Ultimzer: same characters
(5:25:54 PM) Ultimzer: same environment
(5:25:55 PM) Ultimzer: etc
(5:26:00 PM) Ultimzer: just with gameplay changes
(5:26:11 PM) Ultimzer: you're preplaying the same thing, not progressing
(5:26:15 PM) Ultimzer: *replaying
(5:26:25 PM) Dart: expanding
(5:27:07 PM) Ultimzer: which is just the politically correct term for replaying
(5:27:17 PM) Ultimzer: you sound like a bad interview
(5:27:20 PM) Ultimzer: :/
(5:27:26 PM) Dart: what's your point?

we're still discussing atm

[Chutzpar]

Boo hoo hoo criticism on the internet ;A;

I'm trying to be less of a dick than usual
but if it's not well-recieved here then it's not likely to be well recieved in many other places. I can't really see any criticisms made here that weren't valid.

So here I shall regale you with a WALL OF TEXT.

The models are very nicely made. I'm impressed there. But the design, aside from being fairly generic anime nekomimi whatever-the-hell, are lacking. To make a character memorable less is generally more - there are ways to be distinctive without just slapping more stuff on. You need to think about the way each character moves, their posture, how different parts of them are proportioned. The latter bit is pretty important- if you took your characters hair and clothes off, are they still fairly recognisable? Or, if you drew your characters as just silhouettes, could you pick them out?

About the clothes - tone down the detail! Think about how big they're going to be on screen for the majority of the game - you're not gonna be up close and personal for much of it. Aside from being a wasted effort to add all the extra doodads when few people are going to see them, you need to think how it reads from a distance. For example, can you still tell that a belt buckle is a belt buckle from some distance, or does the character start to look garbled?
Since you're familiar with the characters it may be difficult for you to judge; try and find an objective person and ask them what they think parts look like - don't lead the question by asking "Does this look like a belt buckle?", just ask them what they see. Ask them if it's clear and easy to work out.
Try and avoid putting them in patterned clothing. That really only works if you're going to be fairly close to the character, otherwise the detail gets lost at a distance and it just looks a mess. If you're going to insist on using patterns make them really bold, simple and obvious.

There's too much colour on them, too. Generally it's best to pick one or two colours, and play with tone on different places.
I'd say (despite her outfit making me think of a pokemon trainer) that the female character is looking mostly okay in terms of colour. You should really, really avoid using pure grey on either of them, though. Put a teeny amount of colour in there - either the same colour as the rest of the clothing, or something complimentary - and it'll make it 'pop' more. Unless you're actually working in greyscale you should always avoid pure grey.

AND NOW ANIMATION.
You know that little dance anim about a third into the trailer?
That looks better than the rest of the game. It's got some life and weight to it. I'm not an animator so I'm not too clued up on this, but primarily you need to make your character look more like they're interacting with terrain. When you start running, you push off the ground. As you run, your feet are continually pushing off the ground, your arms are pushing against the air, when you jump your hair moves, etc etc. As it is they're looking too static.
That brings me on to my next point - I'm not sure how doable this is with this low-level of detail, but try and think about secondary motion.
I'm not sure how best to explain secondary motion. Basically as well as the movement of specific parts of the body, you have to think about how that movement affects the rest of the body + clothing . If someone lifts up their arm - how does it affect the rest of their posture? Does it affect their clothing? When someone's running, does their torso remain static or does it twist with the movement? How does their hair behave?
Obviously with a relatively simple n64 look you can't incorporate ALL of this movement, but you should still think about how a movement affects outside parts. Every action has a reaction and all that.

In a similar vein- try and think about when they start and stop moving. You 'spring' into a run when you start, and when you stop suddenly you skid a bit. Similarly with jumping - you bend your knees before you jump, and when you land you bend them again. You don't just suddenly go from mid-air to standing on the floor. Any prolonged movement should have a clear start, middle and finish. There's a LITTLE of that towards the end of the trailer but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

Lastly try and think about speed. The speed seems to be fairly constant regardless of how the character is moving - shouldn't a jump be faster than a run? When the girl is whizzing through those arrows mid air, shouldn't she be moving really fast, rather than what seems to be quite a leisurely pace?

that's all I can be bothered to whine about for now. Chances are you'll just ignore it anyway so watev.

[DioShiba]

Well, I can say that I am also am starting to see how unoriginal the game is. Which can actually be a problem.

Basically from what Saijee/Dart is saying is that Other people on GMC gave him unoriginal ideas the game play, he never came up with the idea, but got help from others that can't be original.

[Saijee]

I think many of you are getting the wrong idea.

And Vipershark, I asked you NOT to rip my comment's out of our conversations, when I talk to you, I don't expect you do to something like that, if I had known you were going to broadcast my words, I would have stated it differently.

I could say that anything Vipershark has tolled me that you guys have said is invalid.

Complaint's such as "level design" "animation" "music" "cut scenes"

The level design is false, Stuff that I made up on the day I made the trailer, as well as the music. Most of the animation's where made when I first started getting the hang of animation, which is why Koki's Dance was the most well made, as it was the last animation that I had made. The cut scenes again where made up on the day I made the trailer.

Honestly, this trailer was made to be shown off at a talent show for an important person in my church movement. But the person who manages which talent's are the best asked that I email him a youtube video, so I just uploaded it to youtube.

I really really REALLY really did not want to have to make an account on this, so don't give me a bad impression.

Diog, that's not how it is at all, it wasn't until January that I started to talk to the people in GMC about Kokisami, and that was all mainly about sharpening the character designs. But a moderator who saw the trailer suggested I start a general discussion topic about the game to maximize the potential of the game.

Everything that you see in the trailer was stuff I made without talking to GMC.

[PrettyNier]

I still say (even though I haven't posted in the thread yet) that the 3 different games with different mechanics is a bad idea. Just mix the three together and do it well; create a "unique" gameplay system that people will remember instead of just borrowing standard ones.