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Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time
#53
(05-25-2013, 08:19 PM)PrettyNier Wrote:
Quote:(Honestly, I think you've mixed up your metroids... since Grapple beam was mostly just a area crossing tool in super metroid).
It was uniquely effective against most water enemies in Super and was also the means to quick-killing Draygon. It could also pick up items that it touched. But that's kind of not the point here, and those aren't intrinsically meaningful utilizations; i'm addressing alternative uses of the hookshot because its primary use is uninteresting and does not adequately justify its existence. The grappling beam does not necessarily require alternative methods because its primary function is incredibly interesting and enjoyable, because of its taut, sensitive and manipulative physics which are complimented by the intelligent level design. That it attaches to the floating balloon enemies in Maridia further shows the sort of insight that the designers held when designing the item. The variety is in the way the item is utilized within its definition, not by How Much is in the definition.

Quote:Anyways... I figure that ideally, each dungeon serves as tutorial of what each dungeon item can do so the item can be using in later dungeons in more advanced methods while you're learning THAT dungeons item.
1.) an item does not need an entire dungeon to act as a "tutorial" for it. that diminishes the sort of presence a dungeon ought to hold and it, as said before, makes the experience rote. you know what to expect, you know whats coming, and it is in essence the same every time.
2.) a tutorial for -- what? later use of the item? items get the most use - and the most meaningful use - in the dungeon they're found in. they're generally forgotten until a brief sparkle hits the eye of the level designer and, in a bid to impress mr.aonuma, he places a "hookshot" grapple at the end of a corridor or a bridge later on. aonuma smiles in excitement and releases a single tear "beautiful" he cries to his designer. "this will be the best game we have ever made" he mutterse to himself. it exists after their respective dungeons, of course, but their use rarely if ever accomplishes much of worth other than to act as a reminder both you and the designers that it exists.

Bottom of the Well to the Shadow Temple is one of the few instances I found even remotely commendable, and even then, only to a limited extent.

Quote:he flaw in the formula comes from the linear nature of the order of dungeon progression.
Linearity is not a qualitative trait, it is simply a mode. If anything, linearity allows for tighter more focused design. Something that Zelda was incapable of capitalizing on.

Quote:There is less of a sequence in Metroid.
In some. Super Metroid has largely the same structure and order (Crateria > Brinstar > Lower Brinstar/Norfair region > Crateria > Wrecked Ship > Maridia > Lower Norfair > Tourian). The details of these trips can differ, particularly in the realm of lower brinstar/norfair, but the general structure remains the same.
Metroid Fusion is entirely linear and its sequence plotted exactingly: and yet, it still stands as the second best Metroid game behind Super.

Quote:And no. You can't fault them for not having a brand new idea years in advance. (For not trying to have so much item overlap... maybe you can)
It's something they should have thought of but didn't. That's a failure in creativity, end of story.

my apologies for not being impressed by a series defined by a rote uninteresting structure, by a series whose vocabulary and structure is bloated and meandering and superficial, by a series defined by its unwillingness to properly explore its structures.

I was going to respond section by section, but then I realised something.
You're not finding 3 or 4 faults. You're finding ONE and trying to describe it as more, because you can't quite see the root fault you're trying to bring up.

Every supporting evidence you're bring up supports finding the same darn fault, Zelda is too split up in overall level design as a game. Each area is actually isolated rather than a part of the whole. More a group of individual themed dungeons than a whole cohesive game.
I'd guess you'd like a small indie game that was secretly just ONE Zelda dungeon and thats all. Just one game that follows the pattern of a single Zelda dungeon. Enter Dungeon, find Dungeon item. Solve all the puzzles using said item, defeat boss using said item. Like, say... Portal.
But while Portal focuses on the one item entirely... Zelda goes on the next item and rises and repeats the pattern, without expanding on the previous mechanics, leaving each section isolated.

And hey. I can agree with you on that. I just think the individual dungeons were fun and designed well enough to make their item of the day work well in context.[/b]
Christianity is my faith not my religion. And neither should be pushed upon people.
HELP-Need as much C+C and playtesting as I can get on my SHMUP Megaman reimagining!
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Messages In This Thread
Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Koh - 05-19-2013, 09:53 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Gors - 05-19-2013, 10:00 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Koh - 05-19-2013, 10:16 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Zero Kirby - 05-19-2013, 10:48 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Koh - 05-19-2013, 11:33 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Zero Kirby - 05-19-2013, 12:04 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by water dog - 05-19-2013, 03:08 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Lemonray - 05-19-2013, 11:32 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by DioShiba - 05-19-2013, 03:32 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Sevenstitch - 05-19-2013, 12:29 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Koh - 05-19-2013, 01:04 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by AuraLancer - 05-19-2013, 12:54 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Lemonray - 05-19-2013, 01:57 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Koh - 05-19-2013, 03:17 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Lemonray - 05-19-2013, 04:10 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Koh - 05-19-2013, 04:15 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by PrettyNier - 05-19-2013, 04:16 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by DioShiba - 05-19-2013, 05:22 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by water dog - 05-21-2013, 09:29 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by alexmach1 - 05-22-2013, 11:15 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Kriven - 05-22-2013, 11:22 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by alexmach1 - 05-22-2013, 11:33 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Sevenstitch - 05-19-2013, 05:17 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by PrettyNier - 05-19-2013, 06:32 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Zero Kirby - 05-19-2013, 09:02 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Koh - 05-20-2013, 07:02 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Gors - 05-20-2013, 07:08 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Gors - 05-22-2013, 08:40 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by water dog - 05-21-2013, 06:55 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Koh - 05-21-2013, 08:38 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by PrettyNier - 05-22-2013, 10:47 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by water dog - 05-23-2013, 05:45 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Kriven - 05-22-2013, 11:47 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by alexmach1 - 05-23-2013, 12:02 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Kriven - 05-23-2013, 12:03 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by PrettyNier - 05-23-2013, 11:12 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by alexmach1 - 05-23-2013, 07:04 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Gors - 05-23-2013, 11:35 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by PrettyNier - 05-23-2013, 11:52 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Gors - 05-23-2013, 11:59 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by PrettyNier - 05-23-2013, 10:17 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by alexmach1 - 05-25-2013, 10:41 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by PrettyNier - 05-25-2013, 11:55 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by PrettyNier - 05-25-2013, 03:52 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by alexmach1 - 05-25-2013, 05:26 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by PrettyNier - 05-25-2013, 05:29 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by alexmach1 - 05-25-2013, 06:07 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by PrettyNier - 05-25-2013, 06:45 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by PrettyNier - 05-25-2013, 08:19 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Terminal Devastation - 05-25-2013, 09:08 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Zero Kirby - 05-26-2013, 01:11 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by TomGuycott - 05-25-2013, 08:52 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by PrettyNier - 05-26-2013, 09:05 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by TomGuycott - 05-27-2013, 02:10 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Marth - 05-27-2013, 01:15 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Koh - 05-27-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Gors - 05-27-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Gors - 05-27-2013, 02:59 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Marth - 05-27-2013, 05:10 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Koh - 05-27-2013, 05:36 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Gors - 05-28-2013, 07:16 AM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by Koopaul - 05-28-2013, 11:17 PM
RE: Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time - by AuraLancer - 05-29-2013, 01:52 AM

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