Summit Stage SSBB

[Mag]

Add some more shading to it, then go on to add some nice textures. Also, please remove the OSX Leopard background from there, there's no need for it.

I'd recommend slowly adding the detail by using a large brush, and adding more detail little by little, like this. Try that out, and I'm sure this thing would turn out great!

[Cobalt Blue]

i do appreciate the fact you tried to add texture to the ice background, but it looks bland and flat; that's why i suggest you start over and block in the basic forms and colors. break down the reference into basic geometric 3D shapes, it will help you immensely to understand how light hits and shows you the form. considering the fact that the stage itself is a polygonal formation, it shouldn't be too hard to do so.

also, whats with the mac style background? it shouldn't hurt to do a pixelized aurora borialis, in fact if you can do it correctly it will look way better than just the background you're using currently.

This did take a while to finish. Is there any way I can improve the current one without completely restarting?

yes, making a new one and paying attention to what people has posted so far, so you wont have to restart again for not paying attention and getting a bad result.
we have a huge collection of sprite rips on the site, do your homework and look for some referencdes on how people has portrayed ice in games and you'll get an idea of how you can aproach this without making it look like a huge dump of cream.

also yes, remove the useless background.

[Clear]

Way to ignore my critique. Take the reference posted by CO2 and use it. Why are you in such a rush?
As mentioned, the new edit is looking better, try to add more details to it if you can and work on smoothing out the lineart and the lines within the actual background.

[Woppet*]

Why is the background the default mac wallpaper?

http://www.nbcompare.com/images/reviews/...esktop.jpg

[Shade]

Sorry about deleting the previous comment, Didn't mean to!? Anyway, Here's what I'm working on!

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/1830/su...bstage.png

[Cobalt Blue]

it doesnt look like ice yet.

[Gors]

tl;dr this is out of reach for you at the moment. You need to learn the very basics of shading first, then tackle difficult stuff when you're more experienced. If you don't even know how to shade say, a brick or a soccer ball, the chances of succeeding at ice is almost 0.

try something simpler, then we help you from there.

[Terminal Devastation]

tl;dr this is out of reach for you at the moment. You need to learn the very basics of shading first, then tackle difficult stuff when you're more experienced. If you don't even know how to shade say, a brick or a soccer ball, the chances of succeeding at ice is almost 0.

try something simpler, then we help you from there.

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't he learn more if he went back and applied the basics to this or just tackled a small section at a time as he learned new techniques, then worked his way up to it looking like ice. Can't one go straight for the challenge and learn as you progress, with a clear goal in mind? In my opinion, the whole "Avoid hard stuff for now" sounds a lot like the reasoning those stubbornly defending edits use. Let the guy have an ambitious goal and help him apply it step by step. You all should know how it would look each step in the way. If the final is too much, Lead him to the beginner steps. In this specific case, don't worry if it looks like ice yet, work on getting it to looking like a nicely shaded solid object. Should help when it comes to figuring out how to add the ice texture.

Actually my recommendation is to go find some nice arctic backgrounds rather than sprites, and then work on a section of the mountian at a time rather than trying to shade the whole thing at once. You'll have to clean up as you expand but it should look rather nice.
Anyways, the biggest tip I can give with ice is that if its clear rather than frosted ice (which in games it usually is) having patches of darker shade in the midtone may help a bit. Frosted ice is a little more complicated.

[Chris2Balls [:B]]

One thing that I think evades you is the effort required to shade such a big sprite: is SHADEDBZ really prepared to take on something of this scale?
I don't think so.
I think learning to be moderate helps build up your potential and your ambitions. We're trying to give foundations to his ambitions.
Even if he doesn't finish this sprite, he's learnt a couple of lessons from this experience.
I don't think it's a question of "avoiding the hard stuff for now", because we're trying to make him conscious of the consideration that needs to be given to the pixels in his work. Working on small sprites and upwards is recommended for a reason: it's about mastering the area you're working on, it's about learning the importance of the pixel. So in no case is he avoiding the "hard stuff", he's being made more aware of it.
He still has a lot to learn, and not just technique in pixel art, but art in general too.
The fact that SHADEDBZ is trying to recreate something with a rather complicated and softened volume isn't a good idea at his level, and add to that rendering the ice textures. It isn't the kind of thing you'd ask a beginner to do, even to progress. Is it really a project that motivates him to the bottom of his heart, or is it some teenage whim which he'll probably discard in a few months' time?
This is why I think he should give this project a break until he feels up to shading such a large area. He could even try doing several smaller versions of this.
Working in fragments could more than potentially destroy his workflow, making his piece patchy. It could also lead to quite a lot of touching up if he keeps trying new techniques on it, which could be quite laborious, and easily avoided if it were done entirely in one set in time.
He could've optimised his worktime if he took a more general approach. Having an overall outlook on your work in progress is crucial in order to finish.

[Terminal Devastation]

For the sake of clarity I'm going to reorder some of your sentences. If any context was lost in doing so, I apologise and please let me know. I might have missed something between the lines

is SHADEDBZ really prepared to take on something of this scale?
I don't think so.
I think learning to be moderate helps build up your potential and your ambitions. We're trying to give foundations to his ambitions.
Even if he doesn't finish this sprite, he's learnt a couple of lessons from this experience.

Is it really a project that motivates him to the bottom of his heart, or is it some teenage whim which he'll probably discard in a few months' time?

These are at the heart of my point. Why guide him away from something he has motivation for to something he may not have motivation to complete now? Sure if he wishes to discard it later, so be it. But until he does lose motivation, why not let him learn with something he wants to do. And just recommend that his next project be something smaller. Yes, I don't think he's ready yet, but let him realize that on his own

I don't think it's a question of "avoiding the hard stuff for now", because we're trying to make him conscious of the consideration that needs to be given to the pixels in his work. Working on small sprites and upwards is recommended for a reason: it's about mastering the area you're working on, it's about learning the importance of the pixel. So in no case is he avoiding the "hard stuff", he's being made more aware of it.
He still has a lot to learn, and not just technique in pixel art, but art in general too.

My apologies with my phrasing. It was partially in hyperbole and partially for effect. Although it hadn't occured to me that he might not know how ambitious this project really is, I do think some kudos should be given for the attempt, just to encourage over-reaching for newbies over the stubborn stagnation most usually have (aka "I can't scratch yet even though I can heavy edit really really well").

The fact that SHADEDBZ is trying to recreate something with a rather complicated and softened volume isn't a good idea at his level, and add to that rendering the ice textures. It isn't the kind of thing you'd ask a beginner to do, even to progress.

I'm just going to agree with this.

This is why I think he should give this project a break until he feels up to shading such a large area. He could even try doing several smaller versions of this.

Working in fragments could more than potentially destroy his workflow, making his piece patchy. It could also lead to quite a lot of touching up if he keeps trying new techniques on it, which could be quite laborious, and easily avoided if it were done entirely in one set in time.

I briefly acknowledged the lengthy touch up phase that would be needed to prevent patchiness in this method. I happen to use a similiar method quite frequently so I thought I'd suggest it. It may suit his skill or mind set. I don't see the need of avoiding this mistake however. There's a lot that could be learned from touching up a sprite, including nifty pixel combonations that you can apply elsewhere even if they are not needed for the current piece.

Of course, he is free to disregard my advice on this matter.

He could've optimised his worktime if he took a more general approach.

I'm of the opinion a beginner should worry more about learning the basics and random experimentation that optimising worktime. Time saving techniques are something that come as one learns and vary from person to person as ones own style develops.

Having an overall outlook on your work in progress is crucial in order to finish.

This one I don't quite get. Taking the sentence alone, I have no choice but to say its true. In context however, the added meaning I have to disagree with, simply due my own spriting method.

One thing that I think evades you is the effort required to shade such a big sprite:

Side note: I've attempted larger backgrounds before, but not the point.

[Proton]

Why guide him away from something he has motivation for to something he may not have motivation to complete now?

Please feel free to comment about anything that could improve it!

It's not a matter of it getting done right now, it's a matter of it improving.

I'm honestly under the impression he posted it and thought he was finished himself.



He's shown he's not able to make something great, since he's a beginner.
It's not an expectation to make a magnificent piece at his stage.

Plus, he's also been given good enough criticism to help make it better, but it's really not changing much.


If he was to work on smaller pieces and gradually get to a point where he can muster something worthwhile, then it'd be all the better for him.
Which is really the best criticism you can give someone trying to run hurdles before they can even crawl.

[Chris2Balls [:B]]

Yes, I don't think he's ready yet, but let him realize that on his own

Well, if we did let him realize that on his own, we wouldn't be posting in his thread. We'd let him make other sprites, other threads, over a span of months, until he realizes himself that he still has a lot to work on.
By asking us for help, and with us responding to him, we're cutting down that time. We're confirming a doubt he could have had regarding his work.
He's free to take in count what he likes from us, we're trying to help him; if we can't suggest anything that he does take in account, then we only have to try harder to see what does. He can also look elsewhere for advice at the same time.

I briefly acknowledged the lengthy touch up phase that would be needed to prevent patchiness in this method. I happen to use a similiar method quite frequently so I thought I'd suggest it. It may suit his skill or mind set. I don't see the need of avoiding this mistake however. There's a lot that could be learned from touching up a sprite, including nifty pixel combonations that you can apply elsewhere even if they are not needed for the current piece.

Yes, you did aknowledge it and I did notice, which is why I expanded on it. What you're suggesting depends on the outlook he has on the sprite: does he want to get the sprite done, or is it a potential source of creativity? Is it both? That's something he has to make clear when he works, which is why it's worth mentioning.
I think it's paramount for us to stop him making avoidable mistakes, but not ones from which he can get ideas from.
His skill and way of working are still in the making: suggesting a variety of ways of working will help him decide how he'll work himself, eventually.
You can do a lot from editing a sprite, but you can do even more from restarting; either way, from both you have high chances of getting some results that can interest you, by mistake or not. You don't only learn from mistakes, but also from attempts and failures.
Personally, this is why I prefer creating several versions of a piece and going down several paths for each, then choosing the version I feel I can continue working on. The advantage of doing this is that you don't feel afraid of making drastic modifications of the sprite, or focusing on something else, as it's a different version with a different effect in mind to the original. In the end, I have a lot of material to compare and to observe if anything in my current or future interest arises.

Well, I've tried large backgrounds before, and for now I haven't finished anything beyond 320x240. Anything below that is half or two thirds finished.



I still think it all boils down to awareness. From the awareness of a problem, you can find a solution.
We've all tried to rise his awareness in the thread, and offered some solutions, but ultimately it's up to him to actually use the information we've provided.

[Shade]

I've decided that I'm going to attempt this later. From what you all are telling me, I need to be better before continuing this. I will work on smaller things until I'm good enough to do this. Hopefully I'll improve!

[Gors]

that is the way to go, SHADEDBZ!

Don't forget that a long journey starts with one step. Feel free to use this topic to show new pieces, so we can help you with them.