I think the problem that Gors is trying to point out is that if the characters are funny animals/furries then they would be harder to relate to as characters. The target audience is probably around 13+, an age where people start gaining more independent thought and how that will mold them in the future. Books designed for young adults typically have teenage or coming of age characters because that's the most relatable "vessel" to immerse the reader into the book. The main point is, unless your target audience is in fact sentient unicorn rabbits, then other readers will either have a harder time or being barred completely from being immersed in the book and therefore enjoying it.

(03-24-2016, 10:39 PM)Hiynastrike Wrote: I think the problem that Gors is trying to point out is that if the characters are funny animals/furries then they would be harder to relate to as characters. The target audience is probably around 13+, an age where people start gaining more independent thought and how that will mold them in the future. Books designed for young adults typically have teenage or coming of age characters because that's the most relatable "vessel" to immerse the reader into the book. The main point is, unless your target audience is in fact sentient unicorn rabbits, then other readers will either have a harder time or being barred completely from being immersed in the book and therefore enjoying it.

I hear this a lot that "people want stories they can fit themselves in," but in all honesty... I know a lot of people who either don't care and just want to be enthralled in a story, can relate even to creatures that aren't themselves, or even (such as myself) want characters that are as different from them as possible, as it is more fascinating and interesting than a story about the species that is writing the book. Harder to relate to =/= Impossible.

I have a large list of reasons as to why I will not write about humans, and as I said, they are personal reasons I'm not comfortable with talking about, but they don't involve "being a furfag who only wants to write about animals," it's much deeper then that. Any further suggestion that I change the characters into humans will be ignored. Any other suggestion, however, is very much welcome. Please respect my wish to NOT write about my own species.


Thinking about symbolism a bit more, a rat actually would fit Benny. He's a dirty creature who lives in a dumpster, and has an innocent look to him. Wild rats are known to live in very dirty environments and, in my opinion, domestic rats have a pretty innocent look to them most of the time. It also fits his cousin, who is rich and fancy, as it could be a play on the term "fancy rat." It could also be a plot point for when he comes across the human, who is deathly afraid of rats.

Come to think of it, an Almiraj would actually be a really good fit for the VILLAIN of the story. Almiraj are small, unassuming, but dangerous, which fits the villain, who is a dwarf version of his species, yet still manages to be a powerful creature despite his small size, very well.

Benny's best friend is a hard case. Benny's friend is meant to be a very misunderstood creature. Now, there are several youkai that could fit here, as many youkai, such as the baku, have two versions: a mischievous version and a helpful version. A baku can either steal the good dreams from a sleeping victim or ward away bad dreams from its owner. ...However, I'm not sure if the "mischievous version/helpful version" thing is true for Oni, which is what Benny's friend is originally based off of. I might need to give this one more thought.

The more I read this topic, the more I'm attempting to grasp the plot, but...

- There's a self-insert main character who's played as an underdog
- He befriends several mythical animals, in a city that's just conveniently home to several mythological beasts the mortal world over
- his peers are mostly Yokai for some odd reason despite the fact that the main character's lineage originates in Middle-eastern folklore and is probably the only character of Middle Eastern origins

- Wait a second, is this Dragon Quest 2 but Zootopia


I feel like Benny would probably do better as like...a jackalope, which just seems innately ridiculous in terms of its existence and origins. Having an al-miraj maybe as like, a villain or even rival would be kinda...better actually, because here's this mythical rabbit that's literally better than a jackalope no matter what, and no one takes this poor jackalope seriously. )':
But the cool thing is that he wouldn't just have a unicorn horn - he'd have a nice ten-point set of horns and he can literally lock horns with people over the course of the story. :V

Maybe making Benny's peers be a more eclectic group of mythical creatures from several different originating cultures, yet further driving the point home that Mythica (??) is a haven for all mythological beings?

EDIT: good lord i'm so sleepy. i hope ANYTHING in this post made the least bit of sense.

(03-28-2016, 09:37 PM)Kosheh Wrote: The more I read this topic, the more I'm attempting to grasp the plot, but...

- There's a self-insert main character who's played as an underdog
- He befriends several mythical animals, in a city that's just conveniently home to several mythological beasts the mortal world over
- his peers are mostly Yokai for some odd reason despite the fact that the main character's lineage originates in Middle-eastern folklore and is probably the only character of Middle Eastern origins

- Wait a second, is this Dragon Quest 2 but Zootopia


I feel like Benny would probably do better as like...a jackalope, which just seems innately ridiculous in terms of its existence and origins. Having an al-miraj maybe as like, a villain or even rival would be kinda...better actually, because here's this mythical rabbit that's literally better than a jackalope no matter what, and no one takes this poor jackalope seriously. )':
But the cool thing is that he wouldn't just have a unicorn horn - he'd have a nice ten-point set of horns and he can literally lock horns with people over the course of the story. :V

Maybe making Benny's peers be a more eclectic group of mythical creatures from several different originating cultures, yet further driving the point home that Mythica (??) is a haven for all mythological beings?

EDIT: good lord i'm so sleepy. i hope ANYTHING in this post made the least bit of sense.

Some more good points, and actually the main villain WAS changed to an Almiraj recently, and I'm also looking to minimize the youkai races, but... How is Benny a self insert? Honestly, I don't feel I'm much like the main character. I consider him more of my personal mascot than a fursona or a true representation of myself.

(03-29-2016, 06:51 AM)Benny The Miraj Wrote: How is Benny a self insert? I consider him more of my personal mascot than a fursona or a true representation of myself.

(03-29-2016, 07:07 AM)Kosheh Wrote:

(03-29-2016, 06:51 AM)Benny The Miraj Wrote: How is Benny a self insert? I consider him more of my personal mascot than a fursona or a true representation of myself.

So? Again, I just consider him an online mascot, not a real representation of myself. And besides that, because of the advice in this book, that particular character's probably not going to be the main star in the end.

That's the thing, though. As a mascot, they represent you. By placing them in your graphic novel, you are placing a representation of yourself in the game. Self-insertion.

(03-29-2016, 09:32 AM)psychospacecow Wrote: That's the thing, though. As a mascot, they represent you. By placing them in your graphic novel, you are placing a representation of yourself in the game. Self-insertion.

Honestly, I almost feel like Benny's the opposite of me at times. He's calm, optimistic, friendly, and tries to be nice even when a person is being an ass, often times going to the point of being passive and overly forgiving, where I feel I can be a pessimistic rageaholic at times who has a hard time opening up to people and doesn't hesitate to lash out if I feel people are going out of bounds. ...That's how I feel at times, anyway, but I can be pretty nice when I want to be.

...But then again, I suppose a polar opposite can still be a self-insert, now that I think about it.

(03-29-2016, 09:49 AM)Benny The Miraj Wrote:

(03-29-2016, 09:32 AM)psychospacecow Wrote: That's the thing, though. As a mascot, they represent you. By placing them in your graphic novel, you are placing a representation of yourself in the game. Self-insertion.

Honestly, I almost feel like Benny's the opposite of me at times. He's calm, optimistic, friendly, and tries to be nice even when a person is being an ass, often times going to the point of being passive and overly forgiving, where I feel I can be a pessimistic rageaholic at times who has a hard time opening up to people and doesn't hesitate to lash out if I feel people are going out of bounds. ...That's how I feel at times, anyway, but I can be pretty nice when I want to be.

...But then again, I suppose a polar opposite can still be a self-insert, now that I think about it.

I feel like everytime someone brings up some critism you try to justify it by using lore from the story, I'm sorry to say. This makes the discussion very assymmetrical in the sense that we raise these points without having that information. Rather than trying to justify it by using lore, try to take notes of what some people are saying and use it to improve your story. Obviously what sort of feedback and critism you end up doing something with is up to you, but maybe focus less on convincing us why your ideas make sense and more on why certain critism is raised and what that could mean for your story.

From the general flow of this topic I'm getting the idea that you're increasingly becoming unsure of your story, and the original question "Should I include drawings/make the story darker" has been put on the backseat to focus on different issues, which is not a bad thing. But maybe try to approach your own story from a different perspective. Focus on writing a good start and an ending and think about what story you'd like to tell and what you want readers to expierence and to learn and what general sort of themes go with that. Rewrite it completely if neccesary.

Oh and also, focus less on world-building writing. As the writers of Atomic Robo put it, whilst fun, "World building is just the writing you do to avoid actual writing."

My first point of advice is to flesh out Benny as a character, since you want the story to revolve around him. From the bits of information you've given us so far he sounds like a really flat Friend to All Living Thing Mary Stue kind of character. Give him some flaws, make him a bit bitter about his excistance as a hobo or so. Put him in situations or have him meet characters that he's not comfortable with (quoting the Pixar storytelling philoshopy; "Characters become interesting and develop when they are put into situations they don't like").
If I'm wrong then feel free to say so but please don't try to explain it by using information of hypothetical later chapters. Not because I don't enjoy reading or discussing this with you, but simply because it's not very concessive to the discussion in this topic. Plus you don't want to reveal too many spoilers.

You're clearly very passionate about your story and continue to be. I applaud that, it's fun to see someone so enthousiastic about his/her creations and art. Keep a good grip on that energy, but put it to good use. Don't rush into the details of a story if you're not sure what you want it to be.

(03-29-2016, 02:38 PM)StevenB Wrote:

(03-29-2016, 09:49 AM)Benny The Miraj Wrote:

(03-29-2016, 09:32 AM)psychospacecow Wrote: That's the thing, though. As a mascot, they represent you. By placing them in your graphic novel, you are placing a representation of yourself in the game. Self-insertion.

Honestly, I almost feel like Benny's the opposite of me at times. He's calm, optimistic, friendly, and tries to be nice even when a person is being an ass, often times going to the point of being passive and overly forgiving, where I feel I can be a pessimistic rageaholic at times who has a hard time opening up to people and doesn't hesitate to lash out if I feel people are going out of bounds. ...That's how I feel at times, anyway, but I can be pretty nice when I want to be.

...But then again, I suppose a polar opposite can still be a self-insert, now that I think about it.

I feel like everytime someone brings up some critism you try to justify it by using lore from the story, I'm sorry to say. This makes the discussion very assymmetrical in the sense that we raise these points without having that information. Rather than trying to justify it by using lore, try to take notes of what some people are saying and use it to improve your story.

My first point of advice is to flesh out Benny as a character, since you want the story to revolve around him. From the bits of information you've given us so far he sounds like a really flat Friend to All Living Thing Mary Stue kind of character. Give him some flaws, make him a bit bitter about his excistance as a hobo or so. Put him in situations or have him meet characters that he's not comfortable with (quoting the Pixar storytelling philoshopy; "Characters become interesting and develop when they are put into situations they don't like").

Sorry if it's coming off that way. Actually, I'm trying to take your advice to heart. In fact, with the advice given in this topic, I going to be making a LOT of changes to this book. It's hard for me to defend "lore" when it's a bit on the nonsensical side. I wasn't trying to justify any sort of lore when I said Benny wasn't a self insert, I was just kind of asking what in particular made him a self insert.

Yeah, another big concern I have with Benny is "is he too nice." I've been trying to avoid going too far with it, and even tried to use it as a flaw, like how he's often times passive around danger, which causes poor judgement. The "being bitter about being a hobo" actually would make sense, so there's something I could add to his character too. He could also be the kind of character that tends to fixate on bad situations.

(03-23-2016, 03:10 PM)DragonDePlatino Wrote: If you want to communicate a mature story, I think the best way to do that is to forego images entirely and leave things up to the imagination of the reader. Once you show your readers the main characters, it can ruin the tone of the story for them. This happens to me a lot when I read books (even very well-written and well-drawn ones) and I usually regret looking up images of the characters. There's very little to gain from adding images and a lot to lose.

Oh hey there, really? Because Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, Marjane Satrapi and Warren Ellis would like to say hello.  There is a great deal of merit in graphic literature. 

@Gors See Maus


The problem here OP is that your designs have to match your writing and frankly your designs seem more friendly to a platformer, not a serious graphic novel. I'm all for break the mold but if you are hung up on being more straightforward and by the book "very serious" you need to change your aesthetic to match it.

(03-29-2016, 07:47 PM)Marth Wrote: Oh hey there, really? Because Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, Marjane Satrapi and Warren Ellis would like to say hello.  There is a great deal of merit in graphic literature.

Having just finished reading the official TF2 comics, I can completely agree. Adding art to your story can greatly enhance it. What I was getting at, though, was that adding art creates another barrier for the writer. To make a good book, you must be a good writer. To make a good graphic novel, you must be a good writer and artist. So if you have doubts about the latter, your best bet is to forego the art and focus on the story. An otherwise well-written story can be ruined by bad art.

Anyways, I'm glad to see that Benny decided what to do about his book. Once you make some progress and have some snippets of prose to share, don't hesitate to show us! And I'd suggest changing the topic title if you end up doing that.

(03-29-2016, 07:47 PM)Marth Wrote:

(03-23-2016, 03:10 PM)DragonDePlatino Wrote: If you want to communicate a mature story, I think the best way to do that is to forego images entirely and leave things up to the imagination of the reader. Once you show your readers the main characters, it can ruin the tone of the story for them. This happens to me a lot when I read books (even very well-written and well-drawn ones) and I usually regret looking up images of the characters. There's very little to gain from adding images and a lot to lose.

Oh hey there, really? Because Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, Marjane Satrapi and Warren Ellis would like to say hello.  There is a great deal of merit in graphic literature. 

@Gors See Maus


The problem here OP is that your designs have to match your writing and frankly your designs seem more friendly to a platformer, not a serious graphic novel. I'm all for break the mold but if you are hung up on being more straightforward and by the book "very serious" you need to change your aesthetic to match it.

To be fair, I'm not exactly going for "very serious." I actually want to avoid being too serious, as I feel things that are "very serious" tend to lack emotion and charm. I still want to add a good amount of whimsy and humor. I was more or less just trying to make the story mature enough for readers.

I'm going to try and write the book without putting too much emphasis on what the characters are. Like, for example, I'm thinking of writing in subtle hints as to what the characters species are, like referring to Benny as a "City Rat" every once in a while, without outright confirming the species. That way, people who only want to read about humans can imagine them all as humans, while furries and people who could care less that the characters aren't human can try to imagine the characters for what they are. Is this a good idea?