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+--- Thread: Sprite sheets vs Zip files (/thread-30695.html)
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RE: Sprite sheets vs Zip files - Inthegrave - 02-26-2017
(02-26-2017, 07:02 PM)Petie Wrote: It depends on what you mean by alternative. If you're referring to just resubmitting the same content in zip form then no, we don't want duplicate content across the site.
Fair enough.
RE: Sprite sheets vs Zip files - White-Jet - 02-26-2017
It isn't just the sprites that you might want to take into consideration when choosing between zip or sheets. There's also stage and environmental backgrounds that don't present themselves like one would expect.
What some don't realize, playing games like Mega Man X, is that some games use parallax scrolling to give their 16-32 bit games a more realistic progression. This means that the environmental background is on a completely different layer from the stage's, and scrolling a lot slower to give the visual sensation of distance. Not only that, but some games even animate the stage and their backgrounds, making it difficult not just for game making or animation purposes, but also for viewing because the viewer is basically looking at the same frame, but with small, barely subtle changes they may not notice unless they stacked the two files side by side and crossed their eyes.
The biggest example of why a stage should not be framed and zipped is Hidden Palace Zone from Sonic the Hedgehog 2. Rather than saving tiles or just separating stages from backgrounds in different files, the zip only has files of frames containing chunks of the stage, a majority of which are either completely blank, or similar to other files containing the same sprites, but shot at a different part of the stage. And while sprites are easier to come by as they are complete and fully presentable, piecing together a stage, no matter how linear it appears, is a lot more difficult because you're never sure what pieces go where without playing the game yourself. I can already attest to that, because ripping Sigma's final stage would have been impossible had I not have access to the games Map Editor and gone slightly out of bounds to figure out how high that stage is supposed to be presented as.
One last thing, not exactly on topic but I'm certain someone's going to bring it up as a counter argument, Background HQ is not a reliable source for animating or game making. It's basically a web-based zip file of backgrounds shot section by section, and with little care and consideration to the conundrum of parallax scrolling and stage animation. The most you can get out of it is sprite comics or adding backgrounds to your gif animations.
RE: Sprite sheets vs Zip files - puggsoy - 02-26-2017
(02-26-2017, 04:37 PM)Petie Wrote:(02-26-2017, 09:32 AM)Mighty Jetters Wrote: I'm not Dazz/Petie, but I feel like that would at least roughly double the space all submissions on the site would use
This is pretty much the main concern.
The proposal is definitely possible but it would be a massive undertaking to add the additional content to all of the sheets that are currently missing it. Additionally, I'd be willing to bed that a negligible number of visitors to the site actually utilize the resources for anything other than admiration/reference so the effort required to implement this and get it up to date would realistically be wasted as the benefit would be extremely small. And, as Mighty Jetters mentioned, there is indeed the issue that we would basically double the footprint of the site and while we currently have more than enough space, it certainly isn't infinite.
Well one point of my suggestion was that it should be a purely optional addition. You would still require to submit a sheet initially (unless it works better as a ZIP, like our current system), but at any time people can also submit a ZIP for usability. It wouldn't need to be a huge project like the icon renovation, it could just be something done per-sheet where it's easy or someone feels like doing it. It would double the size of some submissions, but the vast majority would simply would still simply be sheets, which is fine. I think for games like Nuclear Throne, which is extracted in this way initially anyway, it would be nice to have the individual frames up as well.
There is no issue of effort, since nobody has to do it. I agree a small percentage of people would actually appreciate this, but the same could be said for many of the random and obscure sheets we have. The only reason not to have it that I can see is due to space, and I doubt more than 1/4 of the sheets would be given this addition.
Although I agree with your points and I realise this isn't really the goal of the site, I've been in this position before and I know it would be appreciated by a large (albeit relatively small) number of people. It could even increase the traffic to the site, since it would then actually be an option for those looking to use sprites in this way (since at least some sprites would be in this format).
RE: Sprite sheets vs Zip files - Petie - 02-27-2017
(02-26-2017, 08:40 PM)puggsoy Wrote: There is no issue of effort, since nobody has to do it. I agree a small percentage of people would actually appreciate this, but the same could be said for many of the random and obscure sheets we have. The only reason not to have it that I can see is due to space, and I doubt more than 1/4 of the sheets would be given this addition.
I wasn't only referring to the effort or adding in that extra content though. I was more saying that the work required of me to implement the feature to begin with isn't justified by the minuscule benefit it would have.
The thing is, there's nothing unusable about them in sheet form. Slightly less convenient in some cases? Sure. But definitely not so much so that they can't be used if you want to. Zips, on the other hand, are unusable for the vast majority of people visiting the site (i.e. the ones who are only here to look).
RE: Sprite sheets vs Zip files - puggsoy - 02-27-2017
Oooh right, looks like I missed that bit
That's understandable then. I do agree that sheets are overall the best format and better for almost every other case. I just thought that, if it wasn't too much of a task, having alternative versions of a sheet wasn't a bad idea.On a higher note, I intend to make a sort of "sheet extractor" sometime this year to help making sheets easier to use for these cases. It won't work all the time (there's no way to auto-align sprites), but for those made with Daxar's sheeting program - or are similarly organised within bounding boxes - it'll cut out a lot of manual work.
RE: Sprite sheets vs Zip files - Inthegrave - 02-27-2017
(02-27-2017, 12:22 AM)puggsoy Wrote: On a higher note, I intend to make a sort of "sheet extractor" sometime this year to help making sheets easier to use for these cases. It won't work all the time (there's no way to auto-align sprites), but for those made with Daxar's sheeting program - or are similarly organised within bounding boxes - it'll cut out a lot of manual work.
I think there are already great programs for doing just that. But if you can design a better mousetrap it can't hurt.
RE: Sprite sheets vs Zip files - puggsoy - 02-27-2017
Would you be able to point me to any? I don't want to reinvent the wheel, but I'd like to see other versions see if I can improve on it.
RE: Sprite sheets vs Zip files - Goemar - 02-27-2017
Didn't N-finity have a program which did something similar? You had to outline the sprites in pink (using photoshop's stroke tool or something similar) and then it would seperate them all. Wasn't perfect if sprites had 'gaps' in them mind.
RE: Sprite sheets vs Zip files - Inthegrave - 02-27-2017
(02-27-2017, 06:10 AM)puggsoy Wrote: Would you be able to point me to any? I don't want to reinvent the wheel, but I'd like to see other versions see if I can improve on it.
The Sprite Database has one over on the downloads page:
http://spritedatabase.net/download
There is even a youtube demonstration of it by the author of the program:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_8uMZcPxHw
I have seen a few others but I can't think of many off hand.