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+--- Thread: Toad, Toadette, and Gender (/thread-26215.html)
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Marth - 11-18-2014
Technically speaking "Sex" is the biological assignment whereas "Gender" is the role one enacts.
Taken from my child psychology textbook.
In this context biologically toads are gender neutral, but in the past they were assigned a sex but this does not me that this was their gender. So really, poof there goes a lot of arguing. At least from my perspective but I'm up for debate.
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Shade - 11-18-2014
"This is maybe a little bit of a strange story, but we never really went out of our way to decide on the sex of these (referring to Toad and Toadette, not necessarily the entire toad race) characters, even though they have somewhat gendered appearances. But I think what I can say is that Toadette and Toad (Following up with a direct statement regarding the two specifically, basically compliments what I mentioned above) are not siblings — perhaps it would be more accurate to say they are adventure pals. And that’s certainly true here [in Captain Toad].”
Just pointing out some key portions of this. It honestly sounds like it just wasn't important enough to worry about gender, not some kind of statement to the world. This whole thing feels way over-analyzed. Honestly, if it said up front and directly that the entire Toad species is genderless now, I would accept it, really. I just feel like everyone is getting their hopes a bit too high for something that still wasn't necessarily confirmed in that short interview.
Basically sounds to me like he's playing it safe with a potentially dangerous question, which I can understand completely.
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Marth - 11-18-2014
Again all in my perspective which can be debated, but it honestly seems they are taking subtle steps towards approaching a world statement and I think that's awesome.
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Sengir - 11-18-2014
(11-18-2014, 01:48 AM)Kriven Wrote: How is supporting my argument with in-game context any more or less straw-grasping than using a brief answer in a short interview as the foundation for an entire position?
because your in-game context was vague and un-cited (especially claiming to know how "she wears her gender"). captain toad has like almost no dialogue in the first place, and most other games are 2nd party sports/kart/party titles. (before you claim those are valid sources of canon, you should consider waluigi and daisy)
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Kriven - 11-18-2014
(11-18-2014, 01:49 AM)Marth Wrote: In this context biologically toads are gender neutral, but in the past they were assigned a sex but this does not me that this was their gender. So really, poof there goes a lot of arguing. At least from my perspective but I'm up for debate.
It looks more the opposite to me... biologically toads don't have a sex (as you said), but they have been traditionally assigned genders.
(11-18-2014, 01:53 AM)blank Wrote:(11-18-2014, 01:48 AM)Kriven Wrote: How is supporting my argument with in-game context any more or less straw-grasping than using a brief answer in a short interview as the foundation for an entire position?
because your in-game context was vague and un-cited (especially claiming to know how "she wears her gender"). captain toad has like almost no dialogue in the first place, and most other games are 2nd party sports/kart/party titles. (before you claim those are valid sources of canon, you should consider waluigi and daisy)
Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door. In-game numerous times. "She" and "her".
I personally consider the sports and party events canon, and don't really see how Waluigi or Daisy really mitigate that? Honestly, the majority of Mario games at this point are the "spin-off" titles, so I don't see a reason to disregard them.
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Sengir - 11-18-2014
(11-18-2014, 01:51 AM)ShadeDBZ Wrote: "This is maybe a little bit of a strange story, but we never really went out of our way to decide on the sex of these (referring to Toad and Toadette, not necessarily the entire toad race) characters, even though they have somewhat gendered appearances. But I think what I can say is that Toadette and Toad (Following up with a direct statement regarding the two specifically, basically compliments what I mentioned above) are not siblings — perhaps it would be more accurate to say they are adventure pals. And that’s certainly true here [in Captain Toad].”
Just pointing out some key portions of this. It honestly sounds like it just wasn't important enough to worry about gender, not some kind of statement to the world. This whole thing feels way over-analyzed. Honestly, if it said up front and directly that the entire Toad species is genderless now, I would accept it, really. I just feel like everyone is getting their hopes a bit too high for something that still wasn't necessarily confirmed in that short interview.
Basically sounds to me like he's playing it safe with a potentially dangerous question, which I can understand completely.
"these" is still pretty vague (the original japanese would help)
but yeah. toad and toadette are confirmed genderless.
toads in general might or might not be. ok. i will admit that.
but genderless toad and toadette is a positive statement coming from "family friendly nintendo"
(11-18-2014, 01:56 AM)Kriven Wrote: Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door. In-game numerous times. "She" and "her".
Intelligent Systems
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Kriven - 11-18-2014
(11-18-2014, 01:57 AM)blank Wrote: Intelligent Systems
Irrelevent. Nintendo published. This is like saying comic books not written by Stan Lee but published by Marvel are non-canon. That isn't even remotely accurate.
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Sengir - 11-18-2014
(11-18-2014, 01:59 AM)Kriven Wrote:(11-18-2014, 01:57 AM)blank Wrote: Intelligent Systems
Irrelevent. Nintendo published. This is like saying comic books not written by Stan Lee but published by Marvel are non-canon. That isn't even remotely accurate.
brb looking for canon in Mario's Time Machine (NES) [1994]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wario_Blast:_Featuring_Bomberman!
move over donkey dong, bomberman is officially part of mario canon
this is the best day of my life
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Kriven - 11-18-2014
(11-18-2014, 02:09 AM)blank Wrote: brb looking for canon in Mario's Time Machine (NES) [1994]
This doesn't mean anything.
It's bad so it's non-canon? It doesn't follow the typical formula so it's non-canon? It doesn't develop the characters in any meaningful way, so it's non-canon?
(11-18-2014, 02:09 AM)blank Wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wario_Blast:_Featuring_Bomberman!
move over donkey dong, bomberman is officially part of mario canon
this is the best day of my life
So is Starfy. And Sonic. And the Olympic Games.
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Koopaul - 11-18-2014
You do know that developers at Nintendo always make different statements about the characters and series that never agree with one another. Miyamoto once said things about the Zelda timeline that contradict what others have said... and then contradict what HE himself had said in the past!
I think it's mostly these guys just not giving a shit. No political statements here.
Either way with most Mario "continuity" changes, you have to wait and see if it takes affect in other games before you can declare it a fact or not. That's how I usually role. Like princess Toadstool now being known as Peach and such.
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Iceman404 - 11-18-2014
Blank, small nitpick, but could you please properly format your sentences. The lack of capitals and all that make it difficult to bear this many posts in so little time.
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Sengir - 11-18-2014
(11-18-2014, 02:14 AM)Kriven Wrote:(11-18-2014, 02:09 AM)blank Wrote: brb looking for canon in Mario's Time Machine (NES) [1994]
This doesn't mean anything.
It's bad so it's non-canon? It doesn't follow the typical formula so it's non-canon? It doesn't develop the characters in any meaningful way, so it's non-canon?
(11-18-2014, 02:09 AM)blank Wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wario_Blast:_Featuring_Bomberman!
move over donkey dong, bomberman is officially part of mario canon
this is the best day of my life
So is Starfy. And Sonic. And the Olympic Games.
help. im on mariowiki.
ok. i will try to explain this in a more understandable way:
even if (if!) toadette was somehow canonically female. even if your canon extends to deviantart. even if. if toadette was female.
toadette is no longer female. toadette is genderless. i am sorry. toadette is not a girl.
toadette can still be a cutie though! toadette is a cute genderless character and that's good!
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Kriven - 11-18-2014
Basically until dialogue within the game says "Toadette is not a girl" I'm not going to consider it canon.
Also, none of what I've mentioned extends to fan content. It's all material that takes place in games published (or licensed) by Nintendo. I'm not even counting things like the Nintendo Power comics or the cartoons. Simply the games.
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Sengir - 11-18-2014
well aint that a plug in the butt
luckily you dont define canon, so we are all allowed to look at what nintendo is doing and be happy about it
RE: Toad, Toadette, and Gender - Kriven - 11-18-2014
(11-18-2014, 02:28 AM)blank Wrote: luckily you dont define canon, so we are all allowed to look at what nintendo is doing and be happy about it
You're right, I don't...
...demonstrable in-game elements do. Those are the only "constants" in this equation. I think, all being creators or creative minds of some kind here, we all understand saying "Oh, this is true about my character/universe" but later changing that decision? Until a statement has demonstrable effect in a published artifact depicting that universe, it can't be considered anything more than a malleable and idle thought passing through a creator's lips.