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Winter Zone (Please help) - Printable Version

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Winter Zone (Please help) - jace1313 - 06-13-2020

I need a better version of Winter Zone
My version of the picture has been rejected.
Here is an idea for me to help:
[Image: Capture.png]
I don't want to completely copy this design, I just wanna go for a similar look.
I hope you can help me as soon as possible.

Here is my version:
[Image: winter-zone.png]
please? anyone?
nobody is gonna respond
please reply
respond now

RE: Winter Zone (Please help) - Paraemon - 06-13-2020

No Credit to Tom Payne for the super-early prototype Badniks, that's one.

A lot of this just seems to be a recolor of pre-exisiting content, from Dolphman's customs to the original game sprites themselves. Submarine Eggman doesn't even have much of a change and for some reason there's vermilion fire involved, while the 'freeze spray' is light blue. Plus, it's a mix of styles in of itself - Sonic 2 (Eggman, Hill Top tree), Sonic 3 (Angel Island rocks, Ice Cap crystals, Snow Bomber's body). Consistency is key.

The things that are unique - not edited or recolored, quite simply don't match up with the quality of the rest of the sheet - the baubles, the gift, the sign, the snowman, the background, the carts, the letter, the star, the water, the ice block. I'm not even sure what that white block above Sonic, Tails and Knuckles is meant to be - them frozen?

Basically, my question is this: do you want to emulate the Sonic 2 look, or the Sonic 3 look? With those being the styles used, besides Dolphman's, you're going to have to pick one of them and study how their shading works. As for the background, it is clear that you want to try an aurora, but those things aren't static - they glow and have some shape changes. Study the Sonic 2 and 3K backgrounds for ideas on how to construct it.

Edit: I see the edits at the bottom of your post. Be patient. Just because you posted, doesn't mean everyone's going to flock to look at it immediately. I'm in England, so the time that reads for me as to when you posted is 05:42 PM. That's just over an hour ago as of this addendum. The last edit was about 10 minutes before this reply, so I was probably writing when you made the fourth beg. Just wait next time, and if it's radio silence, come back with something new to show off.

RE: Winter Zone (Please help) - DogToon64 - 06-13-2020

Well some things I've seen in the sheet look pretty good. But other things just don't look very genesis-ish.

Things like the present, background in the top left corner, the cart that says "go!", water, the sign, and the (stone or papers) need better shading.

Also, the Robotnik sprites need improved like the orange fire should be blue

And sheet needs less empty space so it won't take up space

Other than that, it looks like it might turn out pretty good if you improve some things


EDIT: Oh, and another thing, just because you post something doesn't mean that someone is going to get a response in the next 30 seconds your post is posted. You need to be patient.

RE: Winter Zone (Please help) - jace1313 - 06-15-2020

(06-13-2020, 12:37 PM)The Observer Wrote: I'm not even sure what that white block above Sonic, Tails and Knuckles is meant to be - them frozen?
its snow.

Is this acceptable? (Winter Zone) - jace1313 - 06-17-2020

Oh hi. I'm back again.

I just recently updated my winter zone sheet. The original was rejected, so I made a big upgrade.
I will go through all the things I went through, there is alot. I tried my best so I really hope this gets approved.

If you don't know, Winter Zone was going a Snow themed level, created by Brenda Ross and would 
reuse Dust Hill tiles. (Which is what I didn't do) It never made it to the final game.
[Image: winter-zone.png]
This is my original sheet. It looks completely helpless. All the objects here look like trash. They feel like a 5 year olds pixelart stock art. The objects don't look very 16-bit, same with the background. The snowman is the only good object, I completely stole 
Dolphman's Dust Hill Zone ground and Dust Hill layout, AND WHY IS THERE RED FIRE WHEN IT SHOULD BE BLUE?

Get ready for a big upgrade...


[Image: winter-zone-3.png]
...NOW THIS SCREAMS SONIC 2 SCRAPPED LEVELS!

I got inspiration from Aurora Icefield from Sonic The Fighters. It features snowy mountains out on a cold night, featuring an aurora. Instead of stealing the sprites from too different games, I made everything feel unique. I reused the enemies from last time because, and I also have different versions of the trees, Christmas and winter.
I also have these little examples to save blank spaces. There really wasn't much else I could do, if I resized it, it would ruin the sheet. (I know there are other ways of fixing this, but this is the best I could do.)
The boss may look a little lame, but I am not a very good Robotnik vehicle designer. The flames are from the Oil Ocean boss, but I tweaked them to make them feel more unique. There's also this cool "Blank Space" thing I did, and I changed the border color to make it feel different.

What do you think of this sheet? What should be fixed? I can't wait to see your response.

RE: Is this acceptable? (Winter Zone) - Paraemon - 06-17-2020

It screams nothing, except that you've needlessly resized sprites to incorrect parameters in an effort to fill empty space, and the quality either has decreased from before or remained the same. Also, what was wrong with your original thread?

I'm going to be as nice as I can, but I need to remain critical of this.

Key issues:
- The aurora was a lot more natural looking in the old version. Now it's just a bunch of rows of pixels on the horizon.
- In an clear effort to make it unique, you've taken the objects you sourced from Dolphman and rendered it into largely one color. Now it's worse. Even in the 8-bit games, there was discernable detail in the stage pieces. Here, there's not, and just comes off as lifeless.
- The Badniks are an improved attempt and good, but they're not "Tom Payne's scrapped Badniks". Derived from? Yes. Not his.
- The background before had some character, basic as it was. But now, it's just a bunch of lines pixels and polygons. The stars could at least be a bit more diverse - look at stages that use stars - Death Egg Zone, Carnival Night Zone.
- The palette is inconsistent - look at the RGB values used for the Snowman. They don't match those of Robotnik.
- Apparently there's an underwater section - which means there'll have to be a different palette for the underwater pieces.
- The water surface looks nothing like a water surface. I don't think I've seen chunky pieces dotted across the top of the water in a Sonic game; it's always either smooth or wavy.
- You could get away with making the Hill Top Trees more teal in color (and also adjust the color of the trunk) if you were intending on Christmas trees.
- The shading on the ice gun thing for Robotnik could do with having a darker bottom and the shine raised a pixel or two. Some extra detail too, so it doesn't feel tacked on.

It is clear to me that you didn't properly take on board my suggestion to analyse the Sonic 2 backgrounds. By extension, analyse the Sonic 2 graphics. How it's shaded, how it fits together. The most accurate thing relative to the unique content, is the ice block, and that's at a stretch, what with the dark shading on the outer edges. That way, you can figure out how to shape and shade the unique content you're hoping for.

RE: Is this acceptable? (Winter Zone) - DogToon64 - 06-17-2020

Oh yes, this looks much better. But one thing I'd suggest is making the winter tree's snow line more rigid instead of flat.

RE: Winter Zone (Please help) - jace1313 - 06-17-2020

It's time for an update.

[Image: update1.png]

I followed everything you told me. Some things couldn't be correct, but most of them are to me.

RE: Winter Zone (Please help) - Paraemon - 06-17-2020

This is going to be a slow learning process.

Okay.

Starting from the top left, the underwater palette. It doesn't need to be be so totally different that details and shading get obscured. It seems you're aiming for a blue adjustment, so adjust it so it tries to conform to both being blue, and adheres to the palette that is used in general. Sort of like transparent blue over the character, but not really as you want to emulate the technical limitations of the Genesis.

The background is pretty much the same as before, just with some stars and a cutdown section of an aurora. Here's a Google Image Search of the Aurora Borealis, and another of the Aurora Australis. Also, try to flow the palettes into each other, it won't just shift between entirely different color schemes. I recommend using a non-standard color as a template for some stars and having a glowing palette for them.

The freezer thing on Robotnik's unit simultaneously looks better and worse than before. When I said about adding detail, I meant about it being attached to the unit, not a spurious hole that looks like something rammed it's way out the inside of the weapon - the dark shading on the top of the weapon doesn't need to be so dark as well. Also, the base of the unit, the lighting/light source wouldn't really touch it, so I'm not sure what the blue is about.

Elsehow, my criticism in my previous comment still stands. And you still need to credit Tom Payne, I never said anything about removing the tag outright, just change it.

Aside: It might seem like I'm giving you grief, I'm just trying to help you get on the ball with it.

RE: Winter Zone (Please help) - DogToon64 - 06-17-2020

Still, like I said before, the snow on the Winter Tree should be rigid, not flat to make it look more natural
Another thing I can suggest is that instead of making the aurora go to a totally different color, you could try using the palette scroll technic. Which is basically making the colors scroll like on the sega logo near the bottom of this: https://www.spriters-resource.com/custom_edited/sonicthehedgehogcustoms/sheet/81443/

(also, make the aurora move as well to make it look natural instead of static and dead)

RE: Winter Zone (Please help) - jace1313 - 06-17-2020

Back again with another update.


[Image: update2.png]

It has a faint blue to the water pallete, and the background has more mountain range, like no copying and pasting. The mountains are much more unique to me then they ever were. (sure, they are still polygons, but sonic 2 had some polygon backgrounds somewhere.)
Oh, and if the "Tom Payne" thing is wrong, please tell me what to type. I would be super confused.

Oh yeah and i forgot. I tried to make make the snow on the trees more rigid.

RE: Winter Zone (Please help) - Paraemon - 06-17-2020

Dude, I'm going to be up-front. Please read what I'm pointing out - actually analyse the Sonic 2 graphics and look how they work and how the shading affects shape. It's all well and good taking a look at what's said but it feels like my words are more often going over your head than into it, and you rush to make some slight changes in attempt to make it better.

It's not better. It's just more polygons on the background.

At least you got the water palette right.

The animated aurora and the one on the background itself don't match, and it's still looking as if the background aurora has been haphazardly cut up. The animated version doesn't look as though it animates as intended.

Does the stage rely on a few flats and hills? Or is there more intended, like loops, or corkscrews, or ground chunks that have different levels?

For Tom Payne's credit: "Built from the development-stage Badniks provided by Tom Payne".

I advise you to spend more than 12 hours (excluding the obvious sleep period) working on it before the next post, instead of coming back an hour or two later and showing off something that's nearly the same as last time. Elsehow, I still have criticism to the sheet unanswered in earlier replies.

RE: Winter Zone (Please help) - jace1313 - 06-17-2020

This is about as close as i can get to the best version of the sheet.

[Image: update2.png]

I tried my hardest on the mountains and aurora. I hope anybody likes it.

And there is no space for loops or corkscrews. Its snow anyway so it would fall.
Loops should belong in Rock World Zone.




...Did i say that out loud?

to be continued

RE: Winter Zone (Please help) - jace1313 - 06-17-2020

oh no it got rejected.

RE: Winter Zone (Please help) - Paraemon - 06-17-2020

(06-17-2020, 08:18 PM)jace1313 Wrote: oh no it got rejected.

Now re-read all of the critique I posted in the thread. I kept trying to guide you but you kept rushing it with some sort of brazen mentality that it somehow fit the Sonic 2 style when it didn't.

Take the time to work on it, don't post every 1-2 hours in the hope that the most recent version is the best you can achieve.