Gamedev Lounge 0010

[OverlordNext]

Anyone else have stories about family and your own games?

Family doesn't even deserve to play my games.

[Bombshell93]

well theres the time I got to the end of prince of persia sands of time then my cousin finished the game without my concent saving every bit along the way, I had to start the game from the start again.
Then theres the crash bandicoot marathon with my dad, we tried to complete crash 2 in a day, we got very freaking close, the next day we tried crash 3.
Then theres the story of how it took my dad 6 months to beat the ark on Halo 3 on normal difficulty and then he gave up (I'm not even joking, I wish I were)

Ah family, why you no get your game on.

[Previous]

I thought the question was about your family playing games that you have made? :>

[Bombshell93]

woops sorry I had a brain fart XD
in that case there is the time my parents had "the talk" with me because they heard sound effects I was playing around with on an old RPG project I was working on (back when I first started getting into game development)

[Phaze]

Anyone else have stories about family and your own games?

Unfortunately, no. I never really got many proper games out (yet!) and my family aren't really interested in vidya anymore
Maybe I can give free copies to my nephews when they get older if I ever get into the indie business

[Bombshell93]

maybe we could do a project together some time phaze (not now, I'm already working on 3 XD) I've had the problem of never finishing my projects, trying to turn that around now with my arcade series, I'm slowly trying to put together a team for when the arcade series is done so my current team (me on programming and graphics and 2 of my friends on music, design and programming collectively) might make a jump into the indie scene.

[Phaze]

maybe we could do a project together some time phaze (not now, I'm already working on 3 XD) I've had the problem of never finishing my projects, trying to turn that around now with my arcade series, I'm slowly trying to put together a team for when the arcade series is done so my current team (me on programming and graphics and 2 of my friends on music, design and programming collectively) might make a jump into the indie scene.

Sorry, I do not have the slightest confidence in teamwork currently

I've fucked up a couple of college group projects I was involved in (one was definitely my fault) and I still need to do some study since I want to stop using Java and migrate to C++/OpenGL/OpenAL.

[Bombshell93]

okay then,
just keep in mind C++ is only a must if your going to develop specifically for consoles (and microsofts love of C# may change this in the next generation of consoles as it allows them to limit your use of hardware to whatever extent they please, along with the power the next gen consoles will bring the difference between managed and unmanaged may become negligible for non-AAA titles), java and C# are much more user friendly, the base for the majority of scripting systems and very easily portable, not to mention managed languages are becoming the base for the ever growing market of mobile games (android and IOS almost entirely require you use java, you can use other languages but you gain little from it and may even have cross platform issues)

I've learnt enough of C++ to make a 2D game but make no mistake that 3D in C++ even with the right libraries is a nightmare when starting up and requires a lot more effort and attention to learn.

TL;DR?
C++ in game development is only an advantage when you NEED to scrounge for absolute power, in which case fairly advanced techniques and skillsets will be necessary to achieve such, so if your in it just to make games I'd say stick to java and C# for the ease of the work flow.

[Phaze]

TL;DR?
C++ in game development is only an advantage when you NEED to scrounge for absolute power, in which case fairly advanced techniques and skillsets will be necessary to achieve such, so if your in it just to make games I'd say stick to java and C# for the ease of the work flow.

I've used Java for some time (technically it's the first language I've learned. I'm making a game in it currently but it's on hold for now) and I've decided I want to move out of my comfort zone. Not to mention that Java has the wonderful decompilation issue.

As for C#? I've used it and while it seems neat, I'm not eager to jump into a Microsoft creation. I know there are things like Mono, but those were built after-the-fact. I have no interest in XBOX gamedev so not using C# will not inconvenience me. I was considering the WiiU if any indie games I made became popular but that's more of an afterthought, as console gamedev is not as easy to get into as PC gamedev (as far as I heard, though Nintendo is making things more accessible to indie devs as of late. Microsoft is becoming toxic to indie devs and I'm not too sure on the Playstation side of things). I just really wanna try some proper PC development for now.

[Bombshell93]

concerning the indie scene, Nintendo I think picked up on the massive home brew community for the jail-broken wii, and realised both parties could benefit via them opening their console, so if not early, I expect soon, the wiiU will become a hostel for upcoming indie studios.

Xbox seems a bit of a betrayer, XNA is a nice framework to easily get moving on a project but the xbox and windows phone side was crushed by the lack of regulating content, numerous piles of festering sh*t poured in and as long as microsoft were getting their creators club fees they didn't care left or right, now XBLIG in particular is a sea of poorly design minecraft clones, almost pornographic jigsaw puzzle games and various dating sims with graphics so bad it'd put you in a coma, there is the occasional gem and I'm particularly a fan of the radiangames series, but not nearly enough for people to even want to pay attention.

PS3 is a lost cause but the PS4 being announced next year is likely to have indie support, Sony are on their last breath and if they don't pull up from the crash in PS3 sales and the lack of interest people showed to the vita (though I have one and its a very very good console) their going to go under, they have recently showed a lot of interest in developing an API for indie console development particularly aimed at the vita and to a degree the PS3, I'm willing to bet they'll only put this in practice come the PS4, else their dead console would be kept alive by low profit indie games.

By far the best systems to aim for at the moment for an indie developer is browser and mobile, both of which are very favourable towards java, (though the next best language is C++) because of the ways android and IOS are made the difference between C languages and java is negligible, its more down to preference.
if you want to learn C++ there is certainly nothing stopping you, though if you aim for browser / mobile the framework(s) you will be using will have you working as if it were java in the first place.
Not trying to discourage you, its just a question if its worth your time. (I only learned C++ because I'm a bit of an enthusiast on graphics programming, and I've long been wanting to make a AAA lighting engine)

[Sengir]

Xbox seems a bit of a betrayer, XNA is a nice framework to easily get moving on a project but the xbox and windows phone side was crushed by the lack of regulating content, numerous piles of festering sh*t poured in and as long as microsoft were getting their creators club fees they didn't care left or right, now XBLIG in particular is a sea of poorly design minecraft clones, almost pornographic jigsaw puzzle games and various dating sims with graphics so bad it'd put you in a coma, there is the occasional gem and I'm particularly a fan of the radiangames series, but not nearly enough for people to even want to pay attention.

This is why I fully supported Nintendo's extremely rigorous quality assurance (which is now more lenient because when you close up a system too much you get bitched at (but when you open it up too much you get the festering shit (this is why we cant have nice things)))

[Bombshell93]

the ridiculous thing is they had a community thing to judge the games (similar to steams greenlight), but they closed it to only creators club members access, which is ridiculous because the reason their a member is to POST content not review others, the lack of games being judged they defaulted to be published.
Hopefully microsoft will revise the program at some point (maybe next year, with the PS4 being announced next year the next xbox shouldn't be far behind.) I'd very much like to make an xbox game, but at the moment there is no incentive (I'm open to making free games, but the creators club license would put me at a loss.)
they need to drop the creators club and perhaps make reviewing part of the XBL rewards program, I imagine people would be glad to try out game trials an hour at a time and get a few microsoft points for it. providing a game sale gives microsoft more money than the worth of the microsoft points given to rewards users they've made a profit, so they have their incentive.

[Phaze]

XNA is a nice framework

I've actually heard rumors that they're gonna completely abandon XNA - tough luck for all the devs who thought it was good and made their games in it!

By far the best systems to aim for at the moment for an indie developer is browser and mobile, both of which are very favourable towards java, (though the next best language is C++) because of the ways android and IOS are made the difference between C languages and java is negligible, its more down to preference.
if you want to learn C++ there is certainly nothing stopping you, though if you aim for browser / mobile the framework(s) you will be using will have you working as if it were java in the first place.
Not trying to discourage you, its just a question if its worth your time. (I only learned C++ because I'm a bit of an enthusiast on graphics programming, and I've long been wanting to make a AAA lighting engine)

Well the first indie game I plan to sell would be an action RPG, which I highly doubt could work out well on a mobile device without SERIOUS dumbing down of the game (if you can offer assistance on this, I'm all ears! Actually I don't have ears on either of my refs). There'd already be issues with regards to porting it to consoles - though I guess input could be simplified to button combos on a controller instead of keybinds/numbers on a PC.

Honestly, I don't think you could discourage me even if you tried
I had made my mind up about this up to a year ago, and I had been thinking about it for at least 2. I heavily considered all of my options and how difficult this path could be if I go down it, but I think I'd be stupid to not even try. You regret the things you don't do more than the things you do

At the very least, even if I don't want to work for 'myself' (hopefully I will be getting at least one talented friend in on this) and get into the industry working for XYZ company instead (or just get a generic programming job), knowing another language right off the bat would be valuable anyway!

[Bombshell93]

just because their abandoning XNA (which they did so a while ago when the developers were moved onto other projects) doesn't mean its any worse of a framework, its one of the more stable managed DirectX wrappers and although it wont be upgraded to DX10 / 11 the major additions that made DX 10 / 11 are fairly advanced and for the majority of games will make little difference (tessellation and geometry shaders only really make a difference with high detailed models)
All that said a majority of Gaming PC's are still in DX9 / DX10 hardware (obviously if you buy or build a new one its likely to be in DX11 hardware) my PC I made myself and it can run pretty much any game I throw at it, yet its only got a DX10 graphics card (though I'm likely to make another computer when I get the money, my CPU is crap and I'd love an i7) DX9 was the big leap, performance shot up, flexibility went wild, I can see DX9 being used for a long long time (until either graphics card hardware drastically changes, or a revision of similar compatibility and more efficiency emerges)

anyway back on subject, you won't be able to develop for console at the moment, the wiiU is more open yes, but its standards are strict and I'd imagine you'd need a small following before hand, at which point you'd likely be asked to rewrite the game for the wiiU. The other possibility is the Ouya coming out in march, but that'd be the same as mobile platforms as it runs android.

I'd advise developing for PC at the moment if your not planning for mobile. If you wish to use C++ I'd advise you learn your way around OpenGL too, DirectX has been losing the popularity recently due to compatibility issues and its been argued that the new features in DX11 hardware are working much better on OpenGL (in speed and function) even if your not planning to use these features (which you likely aren't) the compatibility is a must because you might have the option to develop for Mac / Linux too. There is also the planning ahead and with OpenGL growing in popularity again it may be best to follow the trend.

also I'd agree on the "it'd be stupid not to try" thing, my statements weren't in opposition of the idea, its just good to know the full story before making a decision.
and you must promise me something, before you consider even touching a generic programming job, you finish a game to standards you are happy with, of which you can greatly enjoy. You don't want to rush into settling with mediocrity.

rewinding onto the controls issue, I find mapping your controls to a controller first is the best way to go,
the less buttons the better (without removing gameplay functionality of course) if you can map controls to a 8 buttons (4 shoulders, 4 main pad) and a D-pad then you can map it similarly on a keyboard, which will make for easy switching between gamepad and keyboard and a convenient control layout.

EDIT: just noticed the size of my post... I like to talk

[Phaze]

just because their abandoning XNA (which they did so a while ago when the developers were moved onto other projects) doesn't mean its any worse of a framework

...

anyway back on subject, you won't be able to develop for console at the moment, the wiiU is more open yes, but its standards are strict and I'd imagine you'd need a small following before hand, at which point you'd likely be asked to rewrite the game for the wiiU. The other possibility is the Ouya coming out in march, but that'd be the same as mobile platforms as it runs android.

I'd advise developing for PC at the moment if your not planning for mobile. If you wish to use C++ I'd advise you learn your way around OpenGL too, DirectX has been losing the popularity recently due to compatibility issues and its been argued that the new features in DX11 hardware are working much better on OpenGL (in speed and function) even if your not planning to use these features (which you likely aren't) the compatibility is a must because you might have the option to develop for Mac / Linux too. There is also the planning ahead and with OpenGL growing in popularity again it may be best to follow the trend.

also I'd agree on the "it'd be stupid not to try" thing, my statements weren't in opposition of the idea, its just good to know the full story before making a decision.
and you must promise me something, before you consider even touching a generic programming job, you finish a game to standards you are happy with, of which you can greatly enjoy. You don't want to rush into settling with mediocrity.

rewinding onto the controls issue, I find mapping your controls to a controller first is the best way to go,
the less buttons the better (without removing gameplay functionality of course) if you can map controls to a 8 buttons (4 shoulders, 4 main pad) and a D-pad then you can map it similarly on a keyboard, which will make for easy switching between gamepad and keyboard and a convenient control layout.

EDIT: just noticed the size of my post... I like to talk

Thing is though, if they drop support for XNA, it's only going to exist if people keep trying to keep v2 alive. It seems efforts at maintaining v3 don't even exist. You're either faced with letting your game die or rewriting it completely. That alone makes XNA an even worse option than Java (Which already has its issues).
DirectX is neat... but again, it limits your options. It's Windows-only and with the advent of Win8... no thanks

I know that much! Even if the WiiU were completely open to anything and everything, I still wouldn't consider porting games over unless I knew enough people wanted them to justify the effort spent. I don't know if my game will even be good yet, but the premise seemed interesting to a couple of my friends

Yeah, as mentioned I'm not even considering mobile for my first proper indie game. Controls would simply not be compatible. The last thing I'd want to do is produce a half-baked game for a system.
I'm already planning on using OpenGL for video, OpenAL for audio. OpenGL is cross-platform and I'd like to be able to put it on Linux, too! I'd only really bother with OSX if again, there was a demand. I don't like OSX and don't plan on owning a Mac anytime soon

As for features, I wouldn't be using a whole lot. Biggest 'leap' I'd be making is the use of fragment shaders for some neat effects and those have been around since v2 and exist in the embedded standard.

Yeah, I know! I can agree with that. My dad keeps telling me otherwise ("Go for your career first then try to do this thing!") but he's a very old fashioned man. He was also apparently concerned about me getting fucked over by... making a nonprofit fangame with a friend. I don't see how I could get fucked over, here

I'm willing to take my chances first and will attempt to settle if it doesn't work out. A benefit to this approach is that I'd have a very good thing (or two) to put on the portfolio as I have very little actual work experience, and would need as much proof of my work as I can manage as I had difficulties in college with group projects. Developing an indie game would arguably show initiative on my part, too.

Hm, not too sure if trying to start off with a controller and expanding to a keyboard would be a good idea, but I guess I'd have to think about it... I'd also need to buy a controller
It's just that I can sympathize with the fellows who are sick of half-assed controller -> keyboard control mapping, especially when going from a console game ported to the PC. Dark Souls was probably one of the bigger offenders, there.

You like talking? Me too!