GAMER LOUNGE 20XX (NO CASUALS!!)

[SonicStorm478]

Mario and Luigi seems more like an RPG franchise compared to Paper Mario these days, even though I was never really a big fan of M&L's battle system.

Anyway, I saw some screenshots of the new Paper Mario and the graphics looked pretty good to me, although if anything I'm a bit worried whether or not it will play like the 3DS one or the GameCube one.

Fingers crossed for Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door style battle system...

EDIT: Darn it, I checked again and found out the battle system will be similar to Sticker Star's.

[Koh]

This is why spinoff series exist, I say. If they want to completely change the foundation like that, fine, make a spinoff series that uses that kind of gameplay. But don't do that to a game series with an established gameplay style, and claim it to be part of the same series, because you immediately alienate half, or more, of your fanbase by doing that.

Good examples of series knowing when to make a spinoff series for different gameplay styles: Pokemon (Mystery Dungeon side series), Dragon Quest (It has a Mystery Dungeon type subseries too, as well as a Monster Raising sub-series, Dragon Quest Monsters), etc.

If they want Sticker Star type gameplay, they should've just made a spinoff series for that, instead of fouling up what people thought to be an RPG series. It's not forgiven like experimental 2nd releases in series, like Zelda 2, Final Fantasy 2, Doki Doki Panic Mario 2, Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories or Castlevania 2. There was no established gameplay style from just the first game, so they were seeing what else works, but after the reception of those and the making of the 3rd games, they should know, by then, what kind of gameplay style to keep.

[Jermungandr]

So I can't help but wonder, is the current direction of the Paper Mario games well liked in Japan? Could that be why they keep making them this way? Because they're pandering to the Japanese audience and not the west?

[Helmo]

So I can't help but wonder, is the current direction of the Paper Mario games well liked in Japan? Could that be why they keep making them this way? Because they're pandering to the Japanese audience and not the west?

I somehow really doubt that. I think Nintendo just doesn't give a shit about the fans opinions.

[Kriven]

Famitsu gave Sticker Star nines across the board, but I don't know how to check any other Japanese sources :-\

[Kosheh]

So I can't help but wonder, is the current direction of the Paper Mario games well liked in Japan? Could that be why they keep making them this way? Because they're pandering to the Japanese audience and not the west?

I somehow really doubt that. I think Nintendo just doesn't give a shit about the fans opinions.

I mean I kinda see Jermungandr's point - usually Nintendo's suggestions on new concepts in games come at the suggestions of its Japanese fans rather than its US ones. As in like - one of the control groups polled during the newest Pokemon game development were Japanese children; I wouldn't be surprised if it were the same for Mario games) there's not a single bit of Western grade school opinion accounted for.


Actually, what if that's literally it. What if they're literally listening for the opinions of today's schoolchildren who've expressed boredom and dissent with the typical RPG formula Paper Mario has and they've been trying to keep it fresh and interesting for the smartphone generation, lol. Meaning they're pretty much pandering purely to young tastes with Paper Mario now by constantly trying new things - meanwhile, the bigger flagship titles (Mario Kart, Mario 3D World) are intended for all ages and the developers go All Out for the best possible game they can possibly cram onto a backwards-recorded Blu-Ray disc

Also, Miyamoto and his "Oh, you don't need original characters or a plot. Gameplay is all that matters"

like us fanboys say, nothing else matters as long as the gameplay's solid, right? 8-D

---

Also, going back to Nicktendo's earlier post, I watched the GameXplain video on Color Splash's reveal. I'll be honest -I'd be OK with Sticker Star if they only managed to somehow keep the gameplay fresh - from what I've heard, you just collect stickers in a book and thumb through pages of them for special attacks.

Between Color Splash's paint meter now giving every "card" you use a cost, and if they were to limit the number of "playable cards" at once by issuing Mario a "hand", we'd have a really interesting Mario RPG battle system with a TCG deckbuilding mechanic.
Imagine that. Imagine strategizing by building specialized item decks to take on enemies in a lava world. Imagine doing it again for the boss in that world

That sounds kinda annoying at first but it could actually be kind of a fun mechanic. OH AND THEN IMAGINE IF YOU COULD FIGHT YOUR FRIENDS' DECKS SOMEHOW

[Koopaul]

It's funny how the original Paper Mario in Japan was called "Mario Story". Now they are saying "story" doesn't matter.

[Kosheh]

It's funny how the original Paper Mario in Japan was called "Mario Story". Now they are saying "story" doesn't matter.

Well, the second one I guess didn't have a story that mattered

The series from the second one onward were referred to as "Paper Mario"

as in, TTYD was known as "Paper Mario RPG"...


"Super Paper Mario"...


and "Paper Mario Super Seal"



whoa, it's almost as if Nintendo actually uses the Paper Mario franchise to explore brand new gameplay angles or something. I think it's due to the fact that it was called "Paper Mario" since the beginning that fans in the West have been expecting the same top-tier gameplay throughout the franchise (as it started itself as a spiritual successor of SMRPG, I guess?)

In all seriousness though, I actually thought it was DONKEY KONG of all Nintendo's franchises - but um no those are just Nintendo's "hardcore platforming" titles (for people who want a bigger challenge than the "Fun for anyone" Mario titles.

Uh nope I guess it's Paper Mario which explores Nintendo's avant-garde side

[Koopaul]

I was implying that the series started out with a storybook theme where the game is separated in chapters that each have their own miniplot and characters in them. Even though the name changed the importance of story and fleshed out characters didn't... Until Sticker Star.

Also, what the fuck does Donkey Kong have anything to do with this conversation?

EDIT: Also I never said anything about wanting Paper Mario series to be "hardcore". I'm just talking about story here. I don't care if they change the gameplay, that's not what I'm talking about! From the beginning Paper Mario was designed with begginers in mind. I knew this.

[Kosheh]

Whoops! Daylight Savings Time really fucked me over

I was implying that the series started out with a storybook theme where the game is separated in chapters that each have their own miniplot and characters in them. Even though the name changed the importance of story and fleshed out characters didn't... Until Sticker Star.

You're...sorta going in the right direction of what I was saying

Also, what the fuck does Donkey Kong have anything to do with this conversation?

EDIT: Also I never said anything about wanting Paper Mario series to be "hardcore". I'm just talking about story here. I don't care if they change the gameplay, that's not what I'm talking about! From the beginning Paper Mario was designed with begginers in mind. I knew this.

What I was trying to say before was "There's a particular franchise Nintendo continuously uses to try to explore new, fresh ideas. Kind of like an 'experimental' series of sorts to test the waters to see what type of gameplay players enjoy." Up until now, I THOUGHT it was Donkey Kong - given we've had the DKC series, DK64, Donkey Kong, Jungle Beat, and DKC Returns for example, each proving very different. Apparently though, that's not really the case. DK's pretty much established his niche over the years, as a "hardcore platformer", in comparison to Mario games as "casual platformer" titles.

But yeah nope it's not the Donkey Kong series that Nintendo truly takes in bizarre directions: turns out it's been Paper Mario all along, which insists on taking the series all sorts of crazy new directions in an attempt to establish itself, with the name changes to each game (at least in Japan) proving this. "Mario Story" was the only game in the series that had that title, whereas "Paper Mario RPG" kinda...self-acknowledged itself as a humongous, beautiful adventure. All the while, however, being it's a Mario title, its aim was to be accessible to beginners as you said.

...at what point, though did Miyamoto get this idea of "Hey guys, story isn't important" from, though
and furthermore, where on earth did the old Paper Mario 3DS beta concepts go


Like, did TTYD take ten years to develop due to the story and Nintendo demanded IS literally shit games out so they can maximize profits?
It's like around the Wii era, Miyamoto just lost his fucking mind. I mean for Christ's sake, Wii Music, Paper Mario's magic disappearing story, and now "Starfox Guard" being literally Five Nights at Freddy's but with not-scary things

---

Going back for a second, I think the Mario/DK comparison I made is kinda solid?? But just in case, it's...similar to the Mickey/Donald Disney platformers of the 90's made by Capcom or whichever other developers at the time.
Mickey games have generally been accessible to newcomers and are good for beginners to the platforming genre around that time. You can complete each one of the SNES Magical Quest games in about an hour.
Donald Duck games, however, have always been tailored to players seeking an actual challenge and can get hard as hell during some segments. That's by design.
Mario games and Donkey Kong games are the same: Mario games have always been beginner-friendly, but...especially as of late, the difficulty in DK games really ramps up at some point and become absolutely frustrating as all hell. But we as gamers recognize that - and like it!

[Koopaul]

What you are describing is what we in the Donkey Kong community call the "Buyout Era". Us DK fans talked like crazy about those strange 10 years of experimental games. You should have seen us and the agony we went through.

*Ahem* You see right after Rare (who were in charge of all the DK games) were bought out by Microsoft, Nintendo had no real development team to handle DK.

So what did they do with it? All sorts of crazy things. Donkey Konga by Namco, King of Swing by Paon, and Jungle Beat by the brand new Tokyo team. Without Rare, they didn't seem to know what to do with the franchise.

None of those games were really working. They knew they had to get back to its roots. That's why we got Returns.

[Kriven]

Let's not forget the Mario vs. Donkey Kong games and Barrel Blast.

[Koh]

Well, Donkey Kong 94 on GB was actually good, and it needs a high resolution, 2D remake like the FF PSP remakes >3<. It'd be gorgeous!

[Koopaul]

That game came out before Rare took on the series. Nintendo was a completely different company.

[Kitsu]

Mario vs Donkey Kong pretty much was Donkey Kong 94

and then it became lemmings