Rev Up Those Sonic Cycles

[Azure-Tranquility]

I'm nostalgia'd over the sonic adventure music in the results screen...

I hope they add City Escape from SA2 and a level from SA1... problem is, what could they add?

I've narrowed it down to Emerald Coast or Red Mountain.

Speed Highway is kind of redundant with City Escape's presence... unless they do a wierd crossover between Speed Highway and City Escape? Nah

What would really humor me is if they added levels from Colors... even adding levels from Unleashed would be pushing it.

[Garamonde]

I want Metal Harbor, but some levels from Heroes like Hang Castle would be awesome too. They could probably re-design them so you wouldn't need 3 characters.

[Shadowth117]

I want Metal Harbor, but some levels from Heroes like Hang Castle would be awesome too. They could probably re-design them so you wouldn't need 3 characters.

Heroes stuff would have been pretty cool to see in there, but I'm pretty sure they cut it off at SA2 based on that poll they had a while back.

[Garamonde]

Well at least give me Pyramid Cave. That rocked over most every other level.

[Rökkan]

I still don't like how Modern Sonic's gameplay mostly forces you forward at high speeds. It only seems to slow down when you go sidescrolling which defeats the purpose of a perfect 3D Sonic experience. But then again this has been a complaint of mine for a while and it doesn't look like they plan to change it.

I think when the levels start looking more like M. C. Escher artwork is when I think the ultimate 3D Sonic experience will be realized. 3D is not one direction, it should allow you to go all over the place.

I've been waiting for someone to mention having a problem with Modern Sonic's gameplay.

I understand the plight I do,but I mean Sonic's selling feature is he's the worlds fastest Hedgehog who thinks a lot of himself and the fact no one can catch him right? That was the tagline and thought process I was aware of when Sonic first hit the Genesis. My question is why can't you love Modern Sonic for what he is?

The creators of Crash Bandicoot even claimed that Crash was designed off Sonic. Crash initial project title was "Sonics' Butt". I replayed Crash 1+2 and it's true. It's a old Sonic Genesis game only aimed at Sonic's butt (Like Modern Sonic has kinda been doing for the past couple of games except Colours, Day levels, Adv, Adv2B being doing right) which i mean to say there's a lot of grabbing stuff a lot of jumping keeping an eye out for good items and goodies. The only difference between the two is that one is doing it slower than the other. I get the whole i want more control of the Character king of deal but to deviate consistently would probably be more trouble than it's worth what with the whole Original Sonic part to compensate.

All I'm saying Koop, and to anyone else who see's problems with modern is that it's easy to call SEGA lazy, but when you think about who Sonic is and what he does, I mean outside of the realm of the Genesis games you were given because that's the interpretation and rendition we were given as kids not the personification of who Sonic is and what he does.

Sorry for the wall of text guys. I guess it's kinda stupid to get methodical and stupid on a Sonic game of all things.

Crash Bandicoot and Sonic aren't that similar in gameplay. It is pretty clear that they had a lot of inspiration from Sonic and they were fans of it (basically Naughty Dog freaked out when they got Hirokazu Yasuhara on their company). As you said, there's a lot of jumping and keeping an eye for secret goodies, but Sonic's entire game design was done with speed in mind. For instance, getting hit by an enemy doesn't represent almost any danger to your lives, you'll always have at least one ring with you, but it does represent a big-ass danger to your time-attacking. Falling down platforms won't get you killed, there's always a path below it, but it will throw you to a path that will obligate you to slow down a lot or just isn't as fast as the upper path. They made the game so that players could try to speed their way through the level without fearing that going too fast would make you get killed easier - but you must be skillful to keep that speed throughout the level. (and Takashi Iizuka said the opposite about that on an interview, proving how much he knows about the classics - Nothing)

Anyway, I know that I'd also want a 3D Sonic that had more of that free exploration that 2D Sonic has, but actually using the depth of 3D levels to make the levels seem even more vivid and vast than those giant levels from Sonic 3 and Sonic CD, but I'm okay with this, even though I think that SEGA is being lazy with Modern Sonic's gameplay, basically finding something that works well and just sticking with it and repeating it several times over like if it was a MAGIC FORMULA, barely trying to improve it (already ranted here about how on Unleashed and Generations, you constantly get boost power for doing nothing other than holding forward, and how Unleashed's boost system was a step backwards from Rush, which basically tried to apply the game design of the classics, speed = skill, to a more modern, fast-paced gameplay) but then again, I'm not sure whether the Modern Sonic gameplay on Generations addresses a lot of issues people had on the day-time levels of Unleashed (like REALLY CHEAP deaths and awful drifting and jumping controls). Colors had a really good level design, but half of its merit goes to the fact that it used the Color abilities really well - most of its level design was 2D platforming sections instead of behind-the-hog fast-paced running sections, and it was made by another team than the one working on Generations as far as I can gather, so I guess we have to wait and see.

[Clutch]

All I'm saying Koop, and to anyone else who see's problems with modern is that it's easy to call SEGA lazy, but when you think about who Sonic is and what he does, I mean outside of the realm of the Genesis games you were given because that's the interpretation and rendition we were given as kids not the personification of who Sonic is and what he does.

I think you kinda missed what he was getting at. He wants more freedom to run around, stop, look, and appreciate the world and not just have a one-way path with a series of timed boosts and jumps. Sonic Adventure did that just fine. Sonic Adventure 2 did it. For all the wrong they did, Heroes, Shadow, and Sonic 06 still did it.

Sonic Colors, gave you a beautiful world, with great settings...and refused to let you explore it. Planet Wisp is a great example: it looks beautiful, and the beginning of the first stage sets you down in a beautiful, wide 3D field that looks like you could run all over the place...by the end, you're circling a 2D path, chaining jumps around a boring construction site setting that looks made up of the same generic girders and blocks we've seen in games since DK Arcade. Why restrict players from looking around when you set your game in an amusement park?

I don't see it losing Sonic's personality either, if you really want to go there. "Speed" fits Sonic. So does "Freedom"; doing what you want.

[Garamonde]

Crash Bandicoot and Sonic aren't that similar in gameplay. It is pretty clear that they had a lot of inspiration from Sonic and they were fans of it (basically Naughty Dog freaked out when they got Hirokazu Yasuhara on their company). As you said, there's a lot of jumping and keeping an eye for secret goodies, but Sonic's entire game design was done with speed in mind. For instance, getting hit by an enemy doesn't represent almost any danger to your lives, you'll always have at least one ring with you, but it does represent a big-ass danger to your time-attacking. Falling down platforms won't get you killed, there's always a path below it, but it will throw you to a path that will obligate you to slow down a lot or just isn't as fast as the upper path. They made the game so that players could try to speed their way through the level without fearing that going too fast would make you get killed easier - but you must be skillful to keep that speed throughout the level. (and Takashi Iizuka said the opposite about that on an interview, proving how much he knows about the classics - Nothing)

Anyway, I know that I'd also want a 3D Sonic that had more of that free exploration that 2D Sonic has, but actually using the depth of 3D levels to make the levels seem even more vivid and vast than those giant levels from Sonic 3 and Sonic CD, but I'm okay with this, even though I think that SEGA is being lazy with Modern Sonic's gameplay, basically finding something that works well and just sticking with it and repeating it several times over like if it was a MAGIC FORMULA, barely trying to improve it (already ranted here about how on Unleashed and Generations, you constantly get boost power for doing nothing other than holding forward, and how Unleashed's boost system was a step backwards from Rush, which basically tried to apply the game design of the classics, speed = skill, to a more modern, fast-paced gameplay) but then again, I'm not sure whether the Modern Sonic gameplay on Generations addresses a lot of issues people had on the day-time levels of Unleashed (like REALLY CHEAP deaths and awful drifting and jumping controls). Colors had a really good level design, but half of its merit goes to the fact that it used the Color abilities really well - most of its level design was 2D platforming sections instead of behind-the-hog fast-paced running sections, and it was made by another team than the one working on Generations as far as I can gather, so I guess we have to wait and see.

Whoa. And people criticize me for text walls. But no seriously I think what would also be cool is a totally rad 3D Mushroom Forest Zone (is that what it's called?), with the good old bouncy mushrooms, the boosters, curves, and totally redone SPECIAL STAGES! Imagine a gorgeous 3D rainbow of colors you'd see playing that DNA fryer stage like me and my cousin like to call it. Ooooor if you want something dizzying and annoying, try the spinning stages (kinda mind-boggling thinking about how they would remake something like that).

[Omegajak]

All I'm saying Koop, and to anyone else who see's problems with modern is that it's easy to call SEGA lazy, but when you think about who Sonic is and what he does, I mean outside of the realm of the Genesis games you were given because that's the interpretation and rendition we were given as kids not the personification of who Sonic is and what he does.

I think you kinda missed what he was getting at. He wants more freedom to run around, stop, look, and appreciate the world and not just have a one-way path with a series of timed boosts and jumps. Sonic Adventure did that just fine. Sonic Adventure 2 did it. For all the wrong they did, Heroes, Shadow, and Sonic 06 still did it.

Sonic Colors, gave you a beautiful world, with great settings...and refused to let you explore it. Planet Wisp is a great example: it looks beautiful, and the beginning of the first stage sets you down in a beautiful, wide 3D field that looks like you could run all over the place...by the end, you're circling a 2D path, chaining jumps around a boring construction site setting that looks made up of the same generic girders and blocks we've seen in games since DK Arcade. Why restrict players from looking around when you set your game in an amusement park?

I don't see it losing Sonic's personality either, if you really want to go there. "Speed" fits Sonic. So does "Freedom"; doing what you want.

Before I retort Clutch, I need to clarify something the team behind Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 were they two different teams or the same team?

I hear you and Koops plea, but think about it logically the only way to make modern have more freedom we'd be going back to Adventure and with the current track record that'd probably be the best improvement. I stand behind the game dev team though, because if I was going back to Adventure I'd have to make the worlds 2 times bigger and I'd need more time to develop more ideas on how to make Modern able to venture pretty much everywhere in 3D space without reducing his velocity.

Though, if this is a time attack game where having the most rings in the shortest time between the beginning and the end of the Zone why don't I just create a game where the deviations are minor but doing different things net's the player more rings but a higher time? I think that's where generations modern is going. The different paths are more miniscule but can either slow you down and give you more rings or speed you up and you reach the goal faster.

Sonic is speed AND freedom, speed is his freedom he can go anywhere and see anything and he loves nothing more than getting there fast and seeing something new.

I understand perfectly and I feel the same way, I'd rather have awesome exploration AND speed not one over the other, but I don't see from what they currently have with modern is a bad thing. In fact since the first Greenhill Zone it's always been very basic and easy to speed through, maybe the exploration get's more major for Modern in later levels? I think it'd be best to wait and see another Modern Zone before we start finding faults.

[Azure-Tranquility]

I think, with a small exception for the dreamcast era since it was only two games lol and maybe Sonic 1-2 since those were the defining games, that each Sonic game will only get one level to represent them, with two acts each - one for classic and one for modern.

And they will alternate so that they alternate bosses as well... or they both fight the boss AT THE SAME TIME.

:p

[Garamonde]

I think, with a small exception for the dreamcast era since it was only two games lol and maybe Sonic 1-2 since those were the defining games, that each Sonic game will only get one level to represent them, with two acts each - one for classic and one for modern.

And they will alternate so that they alternate bosses as well... or they both fight the boss AT THE SAME TIME.

:p

You know what... I wouldn't be surprised if they did do something cool and have both Sonics fighting the final boss together, that'd be cool.

Maybe it'd work something like Biolizard.

[Omegajak]

I think, with a small exception for the dreamcast era since it was only two games lol and maybe Sonic 1-2 since those were the defining games, that each Sonic game will only get one level to represent them, with two acts each - one for classic and one for modern.

And they will alternate so that they alternate bosses as well... or they both fight the boss AT THE SAME TIME.

:p

You know what... I wouldn't be surprised if they did do something cool and have both Sonics fighting the final boss together, that'd be cool.

Maybe it'd work something like Biolizard.

OH MY GOD. I never even consider that you two are....BOOM.

Hear that? That's the sound of you BLOWING MY MIND.

[Shadowth117]

I understand perfectly and I feel the same way, I'd rather have awesome exploration AND speed not one over the other, but I don't see from what they currently have with modern is a bad thing. In fact since the first Greenhill Zone it's always been very basic and easy to speed through, maybe the exploration get's more major for Modern in later levels? I think it'd be best to wait and see another Modern Zone before we start finding faults.

I don't think its that really. Its more that Modern Sonic aka Unleashed daytime Sonic levels are always set on a linear path with maybe a few insignificant split offs. You don't really have the freedom to go to specific areas with that kind of gameplay. The engine isn't even designed to let you do that as you can tell by playing either Unleashed or Colors. Sure you can TRY to run around like that, but it feels clunky and the level design is constantly forcing you forward rather than letting the player set their own pace and move around when they want, where they want to go.

Unless they drastically change the way Modern Sonic handles, I doubt we'll have the freedom to roam around like you could in SA1 either.

[Azure-Tranquility]

Well "Modern" Sonic is basically a sped up, harder to control version of Dreamcast Sonic in a'lot of ways.

You still grind rails, homing attack enemies, and light dash across rings, albeit at a multiplied speed.

But hey, at least in Sonic Adventure you could see what's coming next most of the time. =/

Playing Unleashed stages for the first time is real trial and error sometimes. It doesn't bog down the overall experience, and it DOES add a hint of difficulty, but I think they could have handled the stage design better. That was sort of remedied in Colors... but hey, everything's easier to see when it's 2D amirite?

[Omegajak]

I understand perfectly and I feel the same way, I'd rather have awesome exploration AND speed not one over the other, but I don't see from what they currently have with modern is a bad thing. In fact since the first Greenhill Zone it's always been very basic and easy to speed through, maybe the exploration get's more major for Modern in later levels? I think it'd be best to wait and see another Modern Zone before we start finding faults.

I don't think its that really. Its more that Modern Sonic aka Unleashed daytime Sonic levels are always set on a linear path with maybe a few insignificant split offs. You don't really have the freedom to go to specific areas with that kind of gameplay. The engine isn't even designed to let you do that as you can tell by playing either Unleashed or Colors. Sure you can TRY to run around like that, but it feels clunky and the level design is constantly forcing you forward rather than letting the player set their own pace and move around when they want, where they want to go.

Unless they drastically change the way Modern Sonic handles, I doubt we'll have the freedom to roam around like you could in SA1 either.

I'm not saying Generations Modern is like Adventure they aren't the same thing at all.

But do you honestly see them releasing Generations by the end of the year if they're going to make a complete exploration experience? Besides doesn't Modern Sonic offset your hunger for exploration? Plus "your own pace"? Shouldn't you be going....Sonics' pace...?

That was sort of remedied in Colors... but hey, everything's easier to see when it's 2D amirite?

srsly.

[Azure-Tranquility]

The question is... do I get the 3DS version or the 360 version?

Quite a conundrum.