turn-based jrpgs

[GrooveMan.exe]

Are you trying to imply that I've not played a FF game that uses ATB to significant degree? Because wow, no need to resort to personal attacks or anything.

Regarding the Wait option, it's why I said

- Wait 30 seconds to do a move, wait another 30 seconds.

While having more party members means there's a shorter time between each input, you're still sitting there waiting for the next person's turn. Where in other games, turn selection is instant. They focus on systems that reward tactics/forethought/timing, rather than how long you get to wait.

Consider Grandia, which does an ATB system right. The waiting process is directly affected by what you and your enemy is doing at all times. There isn't so much 'waiting' as inputting moves from the get go, and the waiting playing out as characters move. It turns the ATB into a tactical system, rather than using it to make you wait your turn (and not much else).

Final Fantasy when it's not using the ATB? Much faster. The battle system in FFX was just superb. It even had time-based effects (Haste/Slow/Stop) function perfectly and predictably within its system. Let you know just who would be going next and when.

[tsr moderation staff]

imo the ATB system in chrono trigger is one of the best rpg combat systems out there. idk, in my opinion standard turn based combat is kind of outdated. i'm okay with it when they put a spin on it, like with pokemon or a well designed atb system, but when its just straight up turn-based combat, it gets really old really fast imo. the combat system was probably the main reason i could never beat DQ9.
i'm not saying that they should be completely gone, but it would be nice if they didn't dominate the jrpg market the way they do.

[Jalopes]

Are you trying to imply that I've not played a FF game that uses ATB to significant degree? Because wow, no need to resort to personal attacks or anything.

Regarding the Wait option, it's why I said

- Wait 30 seconds to do a move, wait another 30 seconds.

While having more party members means there's a shorter time between each input, you're still sitting there waiting for the next person's turn. Where in other games, turn selection is instant. They focus on systems that reward tactics/forethought/timing, rather than how long you get to wait.

Consider Grandia, which does an ATB system right. The waiting process is directly affected by what you and your enemy is doing at all times. There isn't so much 'waiting' as inputting moves from the get go, and the waiting playing out as characters move. It turns the ATB into a tactical system, rather than using it to make you wait your turn (and not much else).

Final Fantasy when it's not using the ATB? Much faster. The battle system in FFX was just superb. It even had time-based effects (Haste/Slow/Stop) function perfectly and predictably within its system. Let you know just who would be going next and when.

i'm not really implying that you haven't played them; i'm more confused as to why you think its so slow when i've personally never noticed a significant issue

The problem with "instant" turn selection is that most of the time it's done at the beginning of a turn - after that you're forced to wait for each attack to go through. This isn't a problem in games with attacking right after you choose a move, which is essentially what ATB helps accomplish. Instead of waiting for attacks, bars are filling up during them; the only waiting is in the very beginning of a battle before anyone's bar fills up. After that bars will fill up constantly - you make one move with one person, then almost instantly another person's bar will fill up. FF7 even makes the bar fill up super fast when players' limit breaks, which happens all the time.

it just amounts to a different kind of battle system - instead of making tactical decisions and seeing them play out, its more like an action game, except you use a menu system to attack. that being said strategy isn't totally eliminated, it's just required that you think on your feet a bit more than choosing the best possible move combination. i can understand not liking that because its more of a preference thing, but saying the atb is slow doesn't make sense to me because its really not

also just to clarify i'm not saying i think rpgs without atb are bad - most of my favorite jrpgs don't have them, instead opting for a timed hits kind of mechanic or something even more unique like in chrono cross, which are great. i just don't see what's so wrong with the atb because the main complaints i hear about it are never problems for me

[ZaeTelapo!]

Hmm turn based rpgs. These are usually the simplest of games, but can often be the most boring, it really depends I guess.

I'm not that into turn based anymore, as most turn based rpgs lack alot of good features that many action rpgs provide more of(of course this isn't all, but you get my point).

I will say this though, there are some good ones out there(golden sun, paper mario, ar tonelico, mother 3, etc..)

So yeah they can be good, but just seems like half the time it's just kinda bleh to me. Guess when I see turn based I expect more out of it then just a simplistic battle system meant for simple rpg players.

[water dog]

The problem with a lot of turn based games is that you can't do wrong in battle. You can't pick the wrong move for the situation and get fucked over. Most the time, you just have one brute force guy use their best move over and over while the party members heal. There is no incentive to buffing/debffing other than that it makes the fight easier, but all fights are cake walk button smash fests anyway so those turns would be better spent smashing your attack command instead. Speaking of using your most powerful moves, skills rarely have practical diversity. There should be situations in which all of my skills are useful, not just the ones that push the highest numbers. Another huge problem with MOST turn based RPGs is that every character can do everything. It's ridiculous, and makes every single battle such a flat experience, not to mention having multiple party members beyond the max sized becomes pointless.

Turn based as a genre isn't a bad thing, if you ask me, it's the stale limbo the genre has been in for years now that make it shit. Also reaction/precision/timing gimmicks should never be a necessary part of your battle system. This should be true for all games, honestly. Any skill that isn't trainable (arguably reaction/precision/timing can be trained but it doesn't come natural to everyone) shouldn't be necessary for your game to operate.

[ZaeTelapo!]

Well if i was gonna give a more in depth view, that would be it.

Guess that's what made pokemon(well sometimes), mana khemia, ar tonelico, and sometimes golden sun so great is the fact that not every character can do everything. Every character/monster had their own respective purpose and they couldn't really do much outside of that.

Good post btw, summs up the general flaws so those dudes who are all NOTHING IS WRONG WITH TURN BASED GAMES can give them something to think about. Also for those dudes that make rpgs too. That's one problem I saw with rpg making community.

Anyway I'll shut up now.

[Jalopes]

The problem with a lot of turn based games is that you can't do wrong in battle. You can't pick the wrong move for the situation and get fucked over. Most the time, you just have one brute force guy use their best move over and over while the party members heal. There is no incentive to buffing/debffing other than that it makes the fight easier, but all fights are cake walk button smash fests anyway so those turns would be better spent smashing your attack command instead. Speaking of using your most powerful moves, skills rarely have practical diversity. There should be situations in which all of my skills are useful, not just the ones that push the highest numbers. Another huge problem with MOST turn based RPGs is that every character can do everything. It's ridiculous, and makes every single battle such a flat experience, not to mention having multiple party members beyond the max sized becomes pointless.

Turn based as a genre isn't a bad thing, if you ask me, it's the stale limbo the genre has been in for years now that make it shit. Also reaction/precision/timing gimmicks should never be a necessary part of your battle system. This should be true for all games, honestly. Any skill that isn't trainable (arguably reaction/precision/timing can be trained but it doesn't come natural to everyone) shouldn't be necessary for your game to operate.

I definitely agree with this, especially since so many games give you a ridiculous set of skills that you use at most 10% of. As much as I love FF9, I don't think I ever used any other offensive magic than the basic Fire/Thunder/Ice ones because they're all you ever need.

even so, i can't say i find some of these things totally ruining my experience of the games - often times story, music, good boss fights, etc outweigh the games' other problems

this is where i think some jrpgs are an acquired taste; there are definitely better ways for them to be done, but having grown up playing them i'm pretty much not bothered by stuff that others who didn't play them can't stand

[Omegajak]

Chrono Trigger is regarded as an RPG ahead of its time. Though arguable I'd say there is a close match for it in the recent release of the DS game Radiant Historia.

The music is superb

It's turn based BUT, it uses a pseudo-Grandia like system where you can who's turn is next and what you do can ultimately effect who goes next.

The story is good, and even npc's play a larger role in the world which took me be surprise.

The battle system is deep, hard, and yes in fact sometimes random battles are long. It all feel rewarding though, you learn more as you fight more. I think there's some sort of growth because in the later half of the game the battle take a super curve where you can get punished if you don't stop and think before your next turn.

I wish I had a clip to show you all the things this game does right, but by in large at the end I felt like I was playing what should have been Chrono Cross. Strange...

Anyway, I found a clip, but it doesn't really do the game nor the battles justice. If you can get your hands on this game I dare say you won't regret the effort, or time.

[Gaia]

There was also Mega Man X: Command mission, in which I felt the battle system felt under-utilized. You got to see how much HP was left by an energy bar, a rechargable MP bar (under WE), and you didin't have to frantically hunt for a shop just to find a damn potion in stock, there was the famed Sub-Tank, which healed by percentage.

This game's party was also large in my opinion, a first for me to play with a huge cast of colorful characters -- litterally. You also had the trademark boss rush at the end of the game before a final boss. Then, you had assist items which help'd you fight foes by hitting them hard, or by weakness exploitation.

Then came alternate forms, that was new, but could've been done better, a third of the time it was just what capcom was known for -- Recolors. Two forms went invisible, and only two had their appearances fully changed: X and Zero. That, and you had to fight bosses like Silver Horn (which his Water Coating reduced his damage taken but in turn, ironically, boosted his weakness to lightning by 50%), and Mad Natilus, which was a two-parter being followed by the final boss, which was a three-parter. If I recall from the playthrough vids I've seen. And the secret bosses. And secret armor upgrades. Yeah.

Sonic Chronicles tried the same thing to make it's battle system unique, by giving chase to either your foes or you when you tried to flee from the fight. Problem was: It was a Bio-Ware DS JRPG. Bio-Ware is always at it's best when it comes to the WRPG market. a JRPG was new to them, and the "beat eggman/baddie" formula was used. again. So you never really had the option to turn Sonic into a douche or force him into romance with one of the girls. Yeah, it juuust doesn't work that way. If Bio-Ware was working with Capcom instead, I'd say Command Mission would had a better chance of success..

And that's all I have for now.

[water dog]

Chrono Trigger is regarded as an RPG ahead of its time. Though arguable I'd say there is a close match for it in the recent release of the DS game Radiant Historia.

The music is superb

It's turn based BUT, it uses a pseudo-Grandia like system where you can who's turn is next and what you do can ultimately effect who goes next.

The story is good, and even npc's play a larger role in the world which took me be surprise.

The battle system is deep, hard, and yes in fact sometimes random battles are long. It all feel rewarding though, you learn more as you fight more. I think there's some sort of growth because in the later half of the game the battle take a super curve where you can get punished if you don't stop and think before your next turn.

I wish I had a clip to show you all the things this game does right, but by in large at the end I felt like I was playing what should have been Chrono Cross. Strange...

Anyway, I found a clip, but it doesn't really do the game nor the battles justice. If you can get your hands on this game I dare say you won't regret the effort, or time.

That looks amazing, actually.

[PrettyNier]

The problem with a lot of turn based games is that you can't do wrong in battle. You can't pick the wrong move for the situation and get fucked over. Most the time, you just have one brute force guy use their best move over and over while the party members heal. There is no incentive to buffing/debffing other than that it makes the fight easier, but all fights are cake walk button smash fests anyway so those turns would be better spent smashing your attack command instead.

Play Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne.

its systems are consequential, its choices matter; the game is harsh and unforgiving, but the game equips you with everything you need to be able to progress and withstand its assault.

ex.
there are instant death abilities in the game. sometimes, even basic enemies have them. there are two types - holy, and dark. they tend to miss more often than not, but not all the time; one boss later on has one that always hits, against everyone in your party.

but there are ways to counteract it - you can equip something to make you immune to either type so long as its equipped, you can use single-use items that will block the next instant kill attack. et cetera.

[Jalopes]

i just started reading up a bit more on radiant historia, i'm surprised i hadn't heard of it until you posted that

It looks pretty amazing, exactly like a game I'd enjoy. Unfortunately I don't think anywhere near me has it in stock to buy


also i played a bit of shin megami tensei nocturne, but i just kind of stopped at some point. i guess i just don't like the whole monster recruiting thing

[Alex]

Chrono Trigger is regarded as an RPG ahead of its time. Though arguable I'd say there is a close match for it in the recent release of the DS game Radiant Historia.

The music is superb

It's turn based BUT, it uses a pseudo-Grandia like system where you can who's turn is next and what you do can ultimately effect who goes next.

The story is good, and even npc's play a larger role in the world which took me be surprise.

The battle system is deep, hard, and yes in fact sometimes random battles are long. It all feel rewarding though, you learn more as you fight more. I think there's some sort of growth because in the later half of the game the battle take a super curve where you can get punished if you don't stop and think before your next turn.

I wish I had a clip to show you all the things this game does right, but by in large at the end I felt like I was playing what should have been Chrono Cross. Strange...

Anyway, I found a clip, but it doesn't really do the game nor the battles justice. If you can get your hands on this game I dare say you won't regret the effort, or time.

Looks awesome. Because of you, I just ordered it. The battle system looks pretty unique and interesting. Can't wait to play.

[PrettyNier]

i've been waiting to get my hands on radiant historia for a while now, but i haven't been able to find a copy of it. a place nextdoor is apparently ordering two copies, though, so i might luck out!!