Your Perspective on the Gaming Market

[Koopaul]

That's certainly true. The Wii had so many dry spells. That of course is due to games taking longer to develop. Another problem is that they are at a moment where they are trying to reinvent everything. Which is good, but takes them even longer to make games. That's why Pikmin 3 was taking so long.

[Kriven]

Okay here we go.

One of the problems I can only really explain by relating it back to writing. You're going to have to try to fill in the relation yourself, because I won't probably be able to do so adequately. There seems to be an awful lot of telling vs. showing in games lately, which isn't very exciting and makes a lot of things feel very samey and boring. I'll use the newer Mario games as just an example (and this is disregarding the ugly visuals of the past few games.)

In the past when Bowser was angry, you could see it. He would twitch and slouch and try with all his might to kill you. It actually felt like you were being threatened by the fearsome Koopa King. Now it's more like just going through the motions. Instead of showing the tension it's just more like "Okay, Bowser's angry now, guys." And then you battle Bowser, but there doesn't seem to be any real risk. Win or lose is all the same. Just a game. A very different impression from having battled him in Super Mario 64, where it seemed much more like you were fighting for your life.

I suppose this is because of the improvement in software or hardware. Everything seems lifeless now because it's all too perfect. The characters are doing exactly what they're meant to, without any kind of restrictions, There used to be a little more jump to their movements, and I don't know if that was because of more primitive software or because it was intentional, but it added a whole lot of life to the characters.

The other big issue, and this is again mainly a Mario one, is sameness. It's almost like Miyamoto is intentional destroying anything remotely original about Mario. Don't believe me? Of course you don't. Let's look at a few things:

Mushrooms - Mushrooms are shape changing fungi. You get big, you get small. You don't get animal powers. In the RPGs you got few additional mushrooms, but the RPGs have always kind of existed in their own little pocket of the Mario universe. Up until Super Mario Galaxy every power-up, or type of power-up, had a unique item. Mushrooms changed your size, Flowers worked temperatures (this wouldn't be ruined until 3D Land with the introduction of a Boomerang Flower which makes absolutely no fucking sense), and the other power-ups were generally actual suits (with the exception of the Raccoon Leaf, which was its own unique type of plant.)

Suddenly everything is a fucking mushroom. Bee Mario? Bee Mushroom. They couldn't have used a glob of enchanted honey or something, nope. Fucking fuzzy mushroom. Boo Mario? Boo Mushroom. Everything's a god damn mushroom. They at least had the sense not to make everything in 3D Land a mushroom. Oh, but suddenly everything is a fucking leaf, and everyone and their mom has tanooki powers. Where's the fucking variety? Why are you creating something that already serves the exact same purpose as something else? This is like giving the Flash a car.

Anyways, that's about the end of this. I just suddenly lost the motivation to continue analyzing everything.

[NICKtendo DS]

You forgot the Cloud Flower, but regardless of that, your points are very true.
It does feel like they are sucking the atmosphere out of Mario for the sake of creating a template that would be used until the end of time for easy money.
Desaturated as it may be, but Brawl has proven that you can change the look and feel without damaging the design. Detailed, desaturated Mario? Looks just like Mario! I'm not saying this is the style they should go for. They have to get their balls together and actually create a memorable title that from the character render alone you can tell it's from that specific game. Even the Mario sprites in All-Stars were different per game (not counting Lost Levels, because of the obvious), and it's the same cartridge. Now we have the same model of Mario everywhere! The same issue is reflected in the abuse of the Koopa Kids. And instead of reviving everything to sponge of nostalgia, original content can't hurt. I dare even say, give Bowser a break and let someone else ruin Mario's Party. I'm getting a feeling Miyamoto is gay for King Koopa!

[Maxpphire]

Sorry but uhh Skyward Sword is pretty much a fantastic LoZ game.

It made it into my Top 3, which is Majora's Mask, and Wind Waker.
Also the Mario Galaxy games are hella good too.

And even Nintendo has the habit of milking out old things, such as Mario Party.

[Kriven]

I still have to play LoZ: SS, and Spirit Tracks has been very fun so far, and I'm almost through with that. I actually don't think I have complaints with the Zelda franchise yet beyond Twilight Princess and the play-doh Wind Waker.

[Lilly]

Uber late reply because of livestreams.

Anyway, I agree with Kriven. Past Super Mario Sunshine, Bowser hasn't actually served as much of a threat at all. In Super Mario Galaxy, boss fights with him were hilariously pathetic on his part, and I'm curious as to whether the same is true of the sequel.

Which is kinda sad, because the controls were so amazingly smooth, and didn't make me too scared to jump across death pits like in Sunshine without FLOOD. I was looking forward to seeing what dastardly tricks he'd have up his sleeve near the end, and I was greeted to a giant pushover without much of a plan. In sharp contrast, Bowser's plot of trapping everyone in walls and paintings in Peach's castle during Super Mario 64 was actually kinda scary to me as a kid, and he was not easily toppled in the arena over a massive deathpit to infinity.

This additional layer of fear was not due to bad controls or limitations in the game engine either; Super Mario 64 may look dated, but the physics still hold up on any decent controller, besides maybe the tighter wall-jump kick timing. (Well, come to think of it, the whole game has fairly tight controls, but I never struggled with them, personally.)

Considering Miyamoto is essentially "retired" now, and teaching new guys in the industry, maybe someone who isn't afraid to make a challenging Mario platformer will handle the reins? I'd like to see where the main Mario titles go from here on the WiiU. It should be interesting, especially if they update the art style a bit and evolve Mario's appearance even further. I think that alone would give the series a much needed fresh coat of paint. It's not that tired already in my eyes, but it would be a nice change.

They have to get their balls together and actually create a memorable title that from the character render alone you can tell it's from that specific game.

Exactly what I was thinking. Even in all the Gamecube games that starred Mario, you could tell that they usually never recycled the same model each time, and the All-Stars compilation that you mentioned is another great example.

Sorry but uhh Skyward Sword is pretty much a fantastic LoZ game.

It made it into my Top 3, which is Majora's Mask, and Wind Waker.
Also the Mario Galaxy games are hella good too.

I have to agree there. I didn't like how fragmented the overworld was, the weird item button behavior, (Old habits die hard, I like tapping the same button to throw bombs.) and the overly easy final boss, but those are minor nitpicks compared to everything else. Nintendo really delivered with the game, and I was pretty blown away by the shear accuracy of the WiiMotion Plus controls; even Link's wrist would twist with yours.

[Koopaul]

That was probably due to being only one Mario platform title for the Gamecube. The Wii had a ton. Galaxy 2 was just materials they hadn't used in the first game. Actually Mario's Galaxy model is different from his NSMB model. What were they going to do? Make Mario look different in each game?

I feel as if people would probably complain less if it weren't for those New Super Mario games. Stupid games.

[Kriven]

I feel as if people would probably complain less if it weren't for those New Super Mario games. Stupid games.

This might be true if the only part of Galaxy I could actually remember wasn't how horrible the characters all looked with that weird glow. Especially Bowser.

[Koopaul]

Eh? I thought the luminescence of the game gave it it's own distinct spacey feel. But to each their own I guess.

[Kriven]

Eh? I thought the luminescence of the game gave it it's own distinct spacey feel. But to each their own I guess.

Oh, it did, and I see what they were trying to do. And I think the attempt was worthwhile. But it did an awesome job of highlighting every little crack and corner and polygon, and ultimately made most of the objects look really crappy up close.

Smaller objects looked pretty cool when zoomed out, but once zoomed in they were pretty trashy looking.

[Goemar]

In the past when Bowser was angry, you could see it. He would twitch and slouch and try with all his might to kill you. It actually felt like you were being threatened by the fearsome Koopa King. Now it's more like just going through the motions. Instead of showing the tension it's just more like "Okay, Bowser's angry now, guys." And then you battle Bowser, but there doesn't seem to be any real risk. Win or lose is all the same. Just a game. A very different impression from having battled him in Super Mario 64, where it seemed much more like you were fighting for your life.

As much as I enjoy pointing out how much better the older Mario games are in design, music, game play and well, everything I'm afraid this just isn't the case when looking at your complaint.
It's seems to me to be a much more awful issue: You're growing up. That's it really. As a kid, man I crapped myself every time I got to Bowser in SMB (doubly so if I wasn't Super) but play it now - and it's no big deal, it's just a game. A very very good game. But alas just a game. It takes a lot more for a game to give that sense of wonder to an older person than a kid.

In Galaxy when the boss went berserk the first time I was a bit more careful but I didn't fear it.
When my nephew played it and the boss went berserk - he feared the boss. It was nice to see the magic.

Don't get me wrong, there is a LOT wrong with NSMB (I thought Galaxy was good, haters be damned and 3D Land was Ok) but you also have to remember - we aren't the target audience. And as much as it was nice that SMB 3 was hard enough for the older gamer, was it really for the best? Maybe NSMB being as easy as breathing is better for kids? As they actually get to see most of the game?

Kirby's Epic Yarn and Wario Land Shake Dimension are good examples of how a game can be easy (minus the challenges on Wario) but also fun for an older gamer. I would love for a Mario game to pick up where SMW 2 left off in terms of excellence and be challenging - but I don't think that's the way Nintendo is going. It's no longer making 'kiddy' Mario games, it's making Mario games for kids.

[Kriven]

As much as I enjoy pointing out how much better the older Mario games are in design, music, game play and well, everything I'm afraid this just isn't the case when looking at your complaint.
It's seems to me to be a much more awful issue: You're growing up. That's it really. As a kid, man I crapped myself every time I got to Bowser in SMB (doubly so if I wasn't Super) but play it now - and it's no big deal, it's just a game. A very very good game. But alas just a game. It takes a lot more for a game to give that sense of wonder to an older person than a kid.

In Galaxy when the boss went berserk the first time I was a bit more careful but I didn't fear it.
When my nephew played it and the boss went berserk - he feared the boss. It was nice to see the magic.

Don't get me wrong, there is a LOT wrong with NSMB (I thought Galaxy was good, haters be damned and 3D Land was Ok) but you also have to remember - we aren't the target audience. And as much as it was nice that SMB 3 was hard enough for the older gamer, was it really for the best? Maybe NSMB being as easy as breathing is better for kids? As they actually get to see most of the game?

Kirby's Epic Yarn and Wario Land Shake Dimension are good examples of how a game can be easy (minus the challenges on Wario) but also fun for an older gamer. I would love for a Mario game to pick up where SMW 2 left off in terms of excellence and be challenging - but I don't think that's the way Nintendo is going. It's no longer making 'kiddy' Mario games, it's making Mario games for kids.

Except that I wasn't talking about difficulty at all. I was literally talking about the emphasis on the animation.

Editing to add: This is literally not an issue about me growing up, and it actually isn't an issue of growing up for a lot of people. I've played a number of new games that have been just as memorable as the old ones, and made me feel as immersed as the old ones. Maro is not immersing me. That's not the fault of growing up, because fucking Klonoa immersed me last summer and I've been balls deep in HeartGold and Spirit Tracks for a while.

Edit2: Sorry for the rudeness, but I'm sick of seeing "Well, you're just growing up" as an excuse for poor design choices when it really isn't true.

[Keychain]

Indie games tend to be so much more interesting and innovative than 90% of the mainstream garbage. "Dustforce" has more innovation in one megabyte than MW3 and BF3 does in its entire game.

I love indie developers, but yeah, going completely indie would be silly.

[Koopaul]

I don't get how Bowser seemed more scary back then, he seems more scary and expressive than ever now. His boss battles in Galaxy feel like Bowser wants to kill me. In Mario 64 it just sort of seemed random. He'd shoot some fire over here, run over there. For the most part he was sluggish and easily tricked.

However, I must admit, unlike the any Mario game to date Bowser felt like he was watching me in Super Mario 64.... I was constantly reminded of his presence, a force to be feared. From the first time you enter the castle and hear his laugh, every time you try to enter a door that you couldn't he'd taunt and laugh at you.
What was really scary... is that you never got to see him. You never saw him kidnap Peach, you never saw what he did to this place, you are only told by the Toads. Your mind tries to fill in the pieces of just what went down here and how did what he did! Now that's scary!

Finally when you come to fight him... he's kind of disappointing. This is what I was afraid of? He's slow and stupid! So yeah the fight with Bowser was lousy but everything else made me fear him.

The first time I felt satisfied with a Bowser fight in a long time was in Galaxy, where I got to literally whip his ass.

[puggsoy]

Indie games tend to be so much more interesting and innovative than 90% of the mainstream garbage. "Dustforce" has more innovation in one megabyte than MW3 and BF3 does in its entire game.

I love indie developers, but yeah, going completely indie would be silly.

Yesh indeed. I still need to play Dustforce, but stuff like Frozen Synapse and Vessel are all so innovative and is what I love about indie games. Even Super Meat Boy, despite the basic gameplay concept being seen a hundred times before, manages to be new and refreshing and fun.

I wouldn't like a completely indie market, but I would just like commercial companies being more creative. It might be a risk, sure, but I mean all these unknown developers are getting famous from a single game (e.g. Jonathan Blow from Braid), a well-known company should have more chance of making a successful innovative game, right?