Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time

[Koh]

It's time I finally put my thoughts on this game into words.

To begin with, I'll start by saying the game is by no means BAD, but it's definitely not the best, legendary game ever the fans make it out to be. Now I'm prepared to back that statement up.

Problem #1: Hyrule Field - This is my major problem with the game. There's absolutely NOTHING out there. It's so barren and empty, and enemies only come out at night (save for Peahats, but even then, they're no threat). You've got the random bombable places on the field, and the Lon Lon Ranch smack dab in the middle, but everywhere else is just a bunch of unappealing, boring walking. This could have been their chance to make the world really stand out and add a bunch of scenery and sights to actually make exploring more worthwhile, but of course not.

Problem #2: Menu Navigation - This mostly comes with the need to constantly switch between specific pieces of body equipment, like boots or tunics. It happens so often, it's extremely annoying, especially in the Water Temple where you need to constantly switch your boots. The GBC Zeldas only had two item slots, but even then you weren't doing nearly as much item switching as you were in this game.

Problem #3: Bland Characters - The only characters really given much attention were the characters revolving around the plot (I'm tossing Malon into this group). All the other side characters were just THERE. Having NPCs to make places feel populated is one thing, but at least make it worthwhile to actually interact with them. It's sort of like Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest where the NPCs had nothing useful or interesting to say.

Problem #4: Underused/Outclassed Items - I'm not expecting to be using all the items all the time, but some items were really only good for one specific part of the game, and either became useless or unusable later in the game. The boomerang for example. Adult Link can't use it, and it was really only spammed in Jabu Jabu's Belly. So once you got to the 2nd half of the game, it became useless (and you couldn't use it anyway). The bow was the replacement for it for Adult Link, but it didn't have the same effect. How can you NOT use a boomerang when you're older? It's not an age specific thing.

Problem #5: Difficulty - Now, this game is by no means hard at all. I don't want the game to be so hard that it makes you not want to play it, but the difficulty was always down low and easy. I've done the usual fairy-in-a-bottle-backups, but never actually came close to even using them, even when I was just tanking my way through some areas. The difficulty really needed ot be stepped up. A damage increase isn't enough (Master Quest), everything needed to have buffed AIs as well, to actually make them threats. The difficulty in a game shouldn't spike or stay low, it should be a steady increase, forcing the player to adapt to new challenges ahead.

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I'll conclude this by saying again, these are my own personal problems with the game. It's still a decent and enjoyable game, but I definitely don't feel it's worth the legendary pedestal people place it on.

[Gors]

ok

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in a more serious tone, what you said is valid and all but opinions are opinions. I for one I found the game enjoyable with the right amount of difficulty. Hyrule Field was indeed empty but that was never the game's main point anyway, i believe

[Koh]

To Mr. Gors =)

It may not have been the main point, but it sure required a lot of revisiting to the place. A field of flowers with bees moving around in them, a beautiful waterfall to take notice to, a big tree with animals moving all about, etc...stuff like that would have made each trip more worthwhile and appealing than just running across a big empty space.

[Zero Kirby]

To Mr. Gors =)

It may not have been the main point, but it sure required a lot of revisiting to the place. A field of flowers with bees moving around in them, a beautiful waterfall to take notice to, a big tree with animals moving all about, etc...stuff like that would have made each trip more worthwhile and appealing than just running across a big empty space.

There ARE butterflies surrounding bush clusters, you can find bugs under a shitton of rocks in the game, the beautiful waterfall is in Zora's River, and as for the big tree with animals moving all about

I think the Deku Tree and all that pollen in the air has you covered, I dunno, along with even more butterflies and bugs under rocks and fish in ponds

Twilight Princess is much more horrible in the regard of Hyrule Field

At least Ocarina of Time feels big as opposed to just being it.

But, I mean, this IS the Nintendo 64 we are talking about. It wasn't an Extended Memory game, either. You're talking about extended AI for enemies (which ones, by the way, don't tell me the bats need to be ultra-smart because they're just bats) and reactive characters and stuff (some of which did have interesting and helpful things to say, but you make it sound like EVERYBODY needs to be interesting, and did you forget about the trading minigame completely oh my god). Look at the draw distance of the game. And as much as I LOVE Link's Awakening, it has just about as much if not more item switching menu time as this game.

Also the game was plenty hard when I was five, so whatever about difficulty man, but now that I and a lot of others are now very good at video games it's not that big a deal

Don't get me wrong, Ocarina of Time is near the bottom of my "good Zeldas" list, but general consensus these days anyway is that Ocarina of Time is good, but not best Zelda, so your oh-so-controversial opinion in your millionth topic is kind of lost on everybody

[Lemonray]

Dear Koh,

Stop making so many god damn topics.

-The collective consciousness of tSR forums.

[Koh]

To Zero

Oh my, such a lengthy post~ Here we go!

Yes, there are those in certain parts of the field, but they're usually off the beaten path. I meant placing living things in the paths of travel, so that you actually have things to look at and observe while you run across the gargantuan field.

The Deku Tree doesn't reside in the field.

I haven't played TP.

It can feel big without being empty as well.

And this is where the fun begins. It may have been a memory issue, which is understandable from a technical point of view, but that alone doesn't change the fact that trekking across the field is tedious, unappealing and boring. The trading game is one thing, but you don't really see any character interaction outside of the main story characters (tossing Malon in this again). Every NPC doesn't need to tell you how to play the game or be THAT useful, but useful in regards to a small side story or giving you vague directions to a hidden location, etc. They don't need to be Nintendo Power NPCs, just NPCs that don't only say "The weather feels nice today," and that's it. LA had plenty of item switching, but it was in very closed scenarios. You need the Feather to jump over a few pits, but after that it's smooth sailing with the Power Bracelet, or something like that. But OoT makes you swap around more than that, even with the 3 secondary item buttons.

Maybe here, but there are plenty of places I go to that OoT is considered the best game, and anyone who doesn't agree is a fool from their eyes. Millionth topic? Have I gotten my medal yet? What can I say, I like discussions and debates. Stimulate the brain, get ideas from many different sides of the same cube, and have a fun time, I say =).

[Zero Kirby]

To Zero

Oh my, such a lengthy post~ Here we go!

Yes, there are those in certain parts of the field, but they're usually off the beaten path. I meant placing living things in the paths of travel, so that you actually have things to look at and observe while you run across the gargantuan field.

The Deku Tree doesn't reside in the field.

I haven't played TP.

It can feel big without being empty as well.

And this is where the fun begins. It may have been a memory issue, which is understandable from a technical point of view, but that alone doesn't change the fact that trekking across the field is tedious, unappealing and boring. The trading game is one thing, but you don't really see any character interaction outside of the main story characters (tossing Malon in this again). Every NPC doesn't need to tell you how to play the game or be THAT useful, but useful in regards to a small side story or giving you vague directions to a hidden location, etc. They don't need to be Nintendo Power NPCs, just NPCs that don't only say "The weather feels nice today," and that's it. LA had plenty of item switching, but it was in very closed scenarios. You need the Feather to jump over a few pits, but after that it's smooth sailing with the Power Bracelet, or something like that. But OoT makes you swap around more than that, even with the 3 secondary item buttons.

Actually the Feather is used quite extensively throughout the game. Funny you complain about items like the Boomerang becoming useless in the second half of the game but cite the Feather being used only early on, incorrect as it is, as a boon to Link's Awakening. But I mean again, there's a lot more in LA, as I recall. Or maybe I'm just really good at loadout management in OoT. Who knows!

And yes, while the technical problems don't make up for that crossing Hyrule Field is boring sometimes, this was 1998. Imagine you were a kid in 1998, 3D games like this were still kinda new, you started your grand adventure for real, and you reached the top of that hill and saw Hyrule Castle in the distance. And you could go there.

It was kind of a big deal back then. You couldn't see how tall and looming Death Mountain was in A Link to the Past. Here you could. You could climb it, and feel like you were really climbing it.

As for the characters, you can't honestly say that every Zelda game has had nothing but engaging characters. The only reason Link's Awakening's few characters are memorable are because there were only like, five, out of the twenty-five or so that weren't tutorials or story-related, and there weren't that many characters to begin with. They were islanders. Ocarina of Time had to create no less than four bustling character-filled areas, and therefore, has a lot more characters in it. When your game is already late for release (it was delayed over a year) you have to shave off some detail somewhere, and only so many characters can say different helpful things. (Besides, "realistically" they would not all say helpful video game tips and would indeed mention how nice the weather was. Verisimilitude!) Was it to the detriment of the game? Absolutely. But for its time, it was one of the greatest and most real-feeling games ever made, and revolutionized gaming as we know it. Ocarina of Time was a pioneer in 3D game and way too many games to count owe a lot to it, so it's not a bad pick for "greatest video game of all time" based solely on that.

[Sevenstitch]

I'd have to say that any early 3d game, when played today or compared to modern 3d games, will seem barren and plain. There just wasnt enough memory, money or time to make the giant sprawling worlds that games have today, much less add things in them.

OOT came out when I was ten-ish, and when I first played it, OOT was the single most greatest game I'd ever played. There were all these places you could go, and all these things you could do. There were lots of dungeons, and places to visit. It was magical.

As I got older, and moved on to newer games, I'd come back to OOT from time to time, you know, for nostalgia's sake. I still enjoyed it, and yet... It just wasnt the same. Age had set in, and 3d games just dont age gracefully. Not like a 2d game, where everything aside from how many colors or sprites can be used changes from system to system.

Was OOT a great game? Yes, it WAS, at least in the minds of those who enjoyed it when it first appeared back in 1998, but those who are unfortunate enough to not have played it directly after it's conception simply won't find the appeal, simply because games that are bigger, better, and shinier were played by them beforehand.

Nostalgia does exist, and it does affect one's opinion of the past. While I disagree with your judgements about OOT, I can agree that someone looking toward the past without rose-tinted shades would see OOT as plain, easy, and barren. It was, but at the time, It was the most, and best, we'd ever had, and I'm happy with it.

Just my

[AuraLancer]

I think that, considering there was no precedent to a 3D open world of this size, they did an excellent job designing the areas.

After playing through the 3DS version though, I think my time with this game is over. You can only play a game so many times before it's boring, and this one got 20+ playthroughs from me across all versions of it.

[Koh]

To Sevenstitch

I understand it was a big piece of gaming history. But the same could be said of many games that came before OoT even. If that's all it takes to be considered the best game of all time, then why isn't Pong (arguably the first home-console game), those little wristwatch LCD games (first portable games), the first released NES game (the system that set many milestones), etc. not fighting over the same title? Maybe people mean best in regards to innovation in the adventure/RPG series...but wouldn't that go to Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy on the NES, due to none of that having been seeing before, and those were pioneer games? You're probably right, and it could be nostalgia getting in the way of that, but even so, if we're going to talk about pioneering best game awards...it'd have to go WAAAAAAY back o.o.

[Lemonray]

In regards to OoT's aged graphics, I think it's worth mentioning that, even considering the N64's limited capabilities, OoT is still atmospherically superior to the vast, vast majority of games including those that are released today. Obviously the music plays just as much a part in this as the graphics, but even without high quality sound or visuals the game's world has a wonderful feel to it. This is especially true of the adult temples, each of which oozes with it's own unique personality. What's more, is that although they're vastly different, mood-wise, you can feel the influence of Ganondorf's evil within all of them.

And the atmosphere during the final battle against Ganon, is just downright incredible, and honestly I don't think any game will ever best OoT in this area.

[water dog]

But, I mean, this IS the Nintendo 64 we are talking about.

basically this, the fucking game came out in 1998

its not going to be fucking skyrim or whatever

it IS the amazing game all fans tout it to be, it was a phenomenal game

FF7 didn't age well at all but people still praise it like its the god damn bible of video gaming. at least oot withstood the test of time and is still relevant and completely playable

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PS i played and beat this game first when i was 8, it was plenty hard enough then

[Koh]

In regards to OoT's aged graphics, I think it's worth mentioning that, even considering the N64's limited capabilities, OoT is still atmospherically superior to the vast, vast majority of games including those that are released today. Obviously the music plays just as much a part in this as the graphics, but even without high quality sound or visuals the game's world has a wonderful feel to it. This is especially true of the adult temples, each of which oozes with it's own unique personality. What's more, is that although they're vastly different, mood-wise, you can feel the influence of Ganondorf's evil within all of them.

And the atmosphere during the final battle against Ganon, is just downright incredible, and honestly I don't think any game will ever best OoT in this area.

I wasn't referring to the QUALITY of the graphics when I mentioned detail around the world. I meant actually placing doodads around to make the world actually seem more lively, and not barren.

[DioShiba]

Not entirely related but:

Dear Koh,

Stop making so many god damn topics.

-The collective consciousness of tSR forums.

^This.^

We get it Koh, you like talking about video games. But just about half of the topics you make for gaming are just pointless, or they don't need a thread.

Also we're still talking about a game that originally came out several years ago.

If we were talking about a large scale remake fine but most of the OoT games are more or less ports. They're still all the same game.

[Lemonray]

I wasn't referring to the QUALITY of the graphics when I mentioned detail around the world. I meant actually placing doodads around to make the world actually seem more lively, and not barren.

Yes, I know that, I'm not comprehensively challenged. I was referring to Sevenstitch's post in which he mentioned how 3D games tend to age terribly in the graphical department.

Now, it would have been nice if hyrule field was more populated (I think it's pretty much fine for the child portion of the game, but by the time Link wakes up seven years in the future, it really should have been crawling with Ganondorf's minions) but I, and it seems most gamers, can live with it the way it is.
Also, OoT's AI was actually pretty impressive for the time (I've played quite a few more recent games where the AI was worse, in fact) but if you think you can do something better, why not mod the game yourself? Then the enemy AI can be more to your liking.