I love you all to death (Just so I can smash bros with you) (SSBWiiU/3DS)

[Kriven]

The problem with the competitive Smash scene is that they disregard the one skill the franchise has been built around: adaptation.

They basically want Nintendo Street Fighter.

[[robo9]]

Adaptation =/= dealing with borderline OP items that can change the tide of a game with little or no skill

Also, the franchise was built around fucking around with your buddies and having a good time having nintendo characters beat each other up. They haven't gotten away from that

[Kriven]

The only time items have been an issue is when I've played with people who are otherwise already good at the game.

I've never been in a situation where an item or hazard has been so completely unavoidable or unsurvivable that a complete n00b has come out on top because of it. The only times I've been screwed by items has been random counter effect items (like the lightning bolt).

"OP items" is just "I'm not good enough to contend with items available."

[[robo9]]

"OP items" is just "I'm not good enough to contend with items available."

Bullshit.

Spoiler

A lightning bolt that makes all players kill-able at around 50%.
A green turtle shell that acts as a fast projectile that kills around 85%
Two hammers that kill at low percentages, and one allows you to glide.
A fan that easily racks up a shit ton of damage and is nearly impossible to DI out of
A soccer ball that acts as an extremely fast and deadly projectile that can kill at low percents
A heart that manages to heal 100%, which is the majority of kill ranges.
A giant bomb that takes up almost half of the stage and racks up good damage
Home run bat becomes an incredibly fast and hard hitting projectile
Shit, almost every item becomes a fast, hard hitting projectile that can be easily aimed and gimps the majority of recoveries
Bomb ombs become throwable KOs
Pokemon who's attack take up half the screen and deal massive amounts of damage
Spicy Curry is a damage racking machine
The bumper has RIDICULOUS knockback and could kill at 50% (without DI, but still)
Cracker Launcher was a fast shooting, powerful projectile machine you can easily spam
Ray gun is pretty much a low risk instant kill given how easily it kills by getting someone off stage and spamming the A button
Crates and things pop out of no where and can even spawn in the middle of an attack and explode. There's a video I posted before that's a good example of this
The hammer head is a projectile of doom
Bananas cause tripping, and while I don't consider them too OP they're so useful a top tier character's play style is centered around them

All of the items that have drawbacks (such as sqeaky) happen at such a small percentage it's almost a non factor. I'm pretty sure that they happen at such a low percent, they occur less often than GW's OHKO move. That move has a much higher chance of happening, and it's seldom used by GW players (which are pretty few given his tier ranking) because it's so unreliable and the OHKO has a higher percentage of happening than the powerful weapons' downsides.

I might also add that the not only do these items turn the tide of a game, they do it with much less skill than it does to turn the tide without items. Getting away from your opponent and pressing A on an item before he does takes considerably less skill than a zero to death combo someone pulled in desperation

All of these items are arguably OP, especially considered to the move sets of the characters. If items were the norm, the gameplay would no doubt become centralized on the items because they're OP compared to the move sets. It's not about "adaptability," it's that a lot of the items are arguably OP and the majority of competitive scenes try to eliminate randomness

However, we have had this discussion before in this thread that lasted several pages, and this should probably be best left to PMs

[Koopaul]

I like items and think they are a part of the skill needed to be a good player in Smash... however I only like items that a player (with quick thinking) can take advantage of. A lot of items that were really powerful had a Risk/ Reward system going on.

That powerful Hammer had a chance to backfire and leave you vulnerable, that Bob-omb could explode at any second. Items that are all reward and no risk I hate. Things like the horrible Super Spicy Curry. That was an awful item that required little mastery/ quick thinking or any risk for it's power. You just become an unstoppable force. Awful item.

[Darky's Reincarnation]

lets pump some of this shit

Meh. Kalos' Gym Leader theme feels too weak compared with other themes in the series. I prefer the Elite Four theme.

you know, i think i love the gym theme and elite four equally.

but all of them are nothing compared to this one

---

also wouldn't mind hearing this on the elite four stage

really hope we're getting some more of the intense pokémon music this time around, brawl already did an alright job with giving us third gen victory road and vs dialga/palkia

now we just need acid techno

[Ran Master 27]

I really don't know if I'm ready for this smash.
I mean it looks nice, but I really hope it has as much replay value as Melee did.

[AuraLancer]

Man, I had so many vs matches in 64 and Melee, it was great. I liked setting up free for alls with computers, mostly. Having another player has always been an exception, not the norm. That stopped with Brawl though. I mostly stuck to single player modes on that because Sakurai and co apparently forgot to give the characters free for all AI. Brawl's free for all is just a three on one team battle with team attack on. And you're the team with only one player.

Seriously, give it a try. The CPUs almost completely ignore each other and go after you. If I wanted to play three on one, I'd have picked it! I mean, I've done that plenty of times in the previous two games but now you've got no choice.

[Koopaul]

I always had my good friend to play with in Brawl, so I never really had to deal with bad AI.

[Kriven]

What doesn't KO you makes you stronger?

[Kosheh]

The problem with the competitive Smash scene is that they disregard the one skill the franchise has been built around: adaptation.

They basically want Nintendo Street Fighter.

the real problem with competitive smash is that it's competitive
and sakurai treated that mindset like it was the cancer of the community

it seems like he spent the entirety of brawl trying to make the game non-competitive (and he succeeded, i guess, with no one playing it as a result)

the problem, though, is the userbase's perception of "fun". for some, "fun" is using all of the items and the unpredictability of their random spawn. "fun" is using luigi, with all of his quirks and his random-chance luigi missile or final smash. "fun" is having assist trophies or pokemon in play. "fun" is coming out on top with lady luck by your side.

for others, "fun" is reflexes. "fun" is being able to combo together a visually impressive chain of attacks. "fun" is being able to gauge the trajectory and velocity of knockback and utilize that to successfully ukemi, and stay in the fight, or to keep the enemy just enough to interrupt their recovery. "fun" is taking advantage of hitbox sweetspots to guarantee a meteor smash every time. "fun" is coming out on top with all the wits (and thumbs) to prove it.

it's nice to see that sakurai's finally catering to that group, and actually RECOGNIZING IT really shows that sakurai really had to put behind his own personal stigmas and just recognize that Things Happen When You Make A "Good" Game With A "Mechanically Sound" Engine.

i'm really kind of curious to see what Sakurai and Namco-Bandai have in store for those who play "for glory" - like, actually balanced weight classes or rebalanced items.

---

that said, i honestly don't mind items all that much myself - but I don't really like hard-to-see or quick insta-KO items, like the Kirby flying thing or the mines. If you could actually spot-dodge out of all of these item effects, I'd be okay with it - but some of them are straight-up unblockable/extremely hard to escape from which makes them irritating.

if they just nerfed the OHKO potential of some items (like, if the hammer only OHKO'ed airborne enemies, I'd be OK with that)

I really don't know if I'm ready for this smash.
I mean it looks nice, but I really hope it has as much replay value as Melee did.

wh-
you mean brawl didn't have the same replay value that melee did?
i'm still playing all-star whenever i turn on brawl nowadays

[Kriven]

There are people who can't dodge the Dragoon and think they're good at the game?

[[robo9]]

I love how out of all the arguments, you pick a passing comment made by someone who more or less agrees with you to an extent. I mean, I'm still awaiting that PM.

However, the dragoon is a pain in the ass to dodge if the person knows what they're doing. You can't exactly spot dodge like a madman, they can fake you out and get you on a lag frame. It's more or less guaranteed in a team match as well, or any match with more than two fighters. You can play mind games with it yes, but that's not enough skill to justify having the ability to instantly KO someone by lining up a cursor and pressing A.

[NICKtendo DS]

It's OP, because that's the reward for finally getting the three pieces together. It's a pain in the ass to hold on to, let alone knock it off others and trying to get those at the same time.
But you know what, that's why I have the piece of shit turned off in Item Switch.

[Kriven]

I love how out of all the arguments, you pick a passing comment made by someone who more or less agrees with you to an extent. I mean, I'm still awaiting that PM.

They've all been the same argument with the variables swapped out.

"Items are OP."

I mean, I could go into detail about how the "OP" items themselves have risk/reward balance, but that's pretty much been done by other users already. I could say "Hey, the hammer's head flies off" or "Hey, the Gold Hammer is usually a squeaky toy", but that's already been done.

The only other thing that's been said has been about luck-based elements like the green missile's occasional super-launch... but adapting to that scenario when it happens is exactly what I already stated upthread. Luck and chance doesn't break the game, not even a little bit. Sure, the items get in the way of that panicked/twitchy playstyle most major league Smashers use, so I can imagine them being a butt for those guys to play with... but maybe they could adjust their playstyle to be less haphazard given that.

I don't know where your "the negative consequence of an item is almost as rare as a shiny pokemon" thing, but it's entirely offbase.

And you're going to keep waiting on that PM. There's no reason to take a Smash Bros. discussion out of a Smash Bros. thread.