I love you all to death (Just so I can smash bros with you) (SSBWiiU/3DS)

[Sengir]

oh.

[Kriven]

I don't think I can explain it more clearly.

No, I understood what you said. I didn't believe it.

Show me a source that confirms that as fact.

[[robo9]]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Hammer

It's under Hammer head, brah

[Jermungandr]

...I do not see the point in this post by Sakurai.

I think the point of the post might be to show off a feature of the Wii Fit stage. Notice how the screen behind Samus is taking silhouette snapshots of her as she moves.

Also it could just be showing us that she still has her old Down-Special "Flip Jump" move, as that appears to be the move she is demonstrating here.

[Koopaul]

About the Hammer. Don't forget it limits mobility. You are slower and can only perform one small jump. I'd say that makes it very fair. A player can run away and avoid the Hammer easily, even knock it out of the players hands.

See some items are balanced and add a whole new level of competition. Something that repetative use of techniques on a flat stage could never bring you.

You guys know how I feel about the competitive Smash scene. Devoid of all creativity. All Falco users do the same moves and techniques over and over. All the Lucas users do the same moves and techniques over and over. It's mind numbing. But that's almost how it is for every competitive gaming scene. Very little creativity, no one is trying to come up with their own unique strategies or playstyle. It's all very repetitive in a too controled evironment.

Now if you know anything about history and wars in real life, it's mostly been the innovators who'd win. Whether they invent a new weapon or a new strategy, they win by being creative and adapting. I felt like Smash was one of the few games that could replicate this experience. It wasn't just fighting, it was an all out war! Those who could survive, adapt, and think on their feet would win.

That's why I liked the fact that Brawl was so slow. It gave you time to think and try new things. I think a more defensive competition is more interesting than a twitchy offensive one. Then again, I'm a guy who finds a game of Chess more interesting than Tennis.

[[robo9]]

Except many of the stages legal for tourney play are relatively small, and don't offer many places to hide or the ability to try and outrun an opponent. Good luck trying to knock the hammer out of someone's hands, one off frame and you're looking at atleast 30% from an opponent who's only skill was getting to an item before you and pressing A. Heaven help you if you're playing Brawl and you could simply be fucked over because of the random 1-3 frame input lag

It seems like it's all the same because each character has about 12 unique moves, and not all of them are even useful. If you feel that competitive Smash is bland now, it would become even worse because the gameplay would, without a doubt, become centralized around the weapons, especially in higher level play.

I while I do agree with you on the preference of Brawl's defensive style compared to Melee's faster, twitchier pace, the problem is is that it's not as exciting to watch. It doesn't exactly get the adrenaline flowing. People find the twitchy, quick, 290 actions per minute gameplay exciting. While you may prefer a game of chess over tennis, you have to admit that tennis is technically more action packed.

[Ran Master 27]

Got that right.

Who wants to watch a game of turtling. =/
It's all about them happy feets, and lazers.

[Jermungandr]

the stages legal for tourney play

Well there's your problem right there.

[Koopaul]

Yeah exactly Drshnaps. Get your mind out of what a tournament expects Machobot, and start thinking outside the box.

The problem is when you put Smash in a controlled sterile environment you make it so that a lot of the characters' moves are "useless" as you would say. But would those moves be useless in a 1 vs 3 match? Would those moves be useless if you were on a moving stage? Characters in Smash are designed not to handle just 1-on-1 Final Destination battles. They are designed and tested for a number of things that Smash has to offer. What tourney people have set up for these characters is not using them to their full potential.

See in a tournament everyone uses the same moves and strategies because the set up is always the same. If they were playing on a stage that a monster rampages through, the player would have no choice but to try new things!

When you throw in some unexpected element the player is challenged to do something new and think creatively on the spot. A character may shine in ways you never dreamed of!

But yes it is boring. Not because of it's speed and action. No no. But because it's repetitive and predictable. Tournaments remind me of NASCAR. Ever watch that? It's a bunch of very similar vehicles going through the same course around in circles for hours. There's no twists or turns. No clever driving tricks. Just around in circles. It's fast as hell! But it's also repetitive and predictable.

[Ran Master 27]

ACTUALLY, Tournament Melee has plenty of clever play style/mechanics, and it's pretty awesome how fast your brain can execute commands in seconds, and react to situations simultaneously.

But yeah, smash isn't JUST a tournament leveled game.
In FACT, Originally, smash was developed as a party game, you get in with your friends, and duke it out.
Items or no items. Hazard stages, or FD.

It's really all in how you play the game. You should never limit a game down to ONE play style, or favor a select crowd when developing games. The ARE such things as casual players.

It's not fun when you or your opponent pummels you in a one sided fight all day.

I used to bring Melee to school all the time, and people in the game room will do free for alls for the lols.
But you know, when people want to square off 1s. Of course we go tournament rules.

[[robo9]]

I'm from Arkansas man, of course I've watched NASCAR

The fact that you assume that every strategy used in competetive Smash is the same, that players haven't tried to utilize their characters to their fullest potentials OR that NASCAR is simply a bunch of cars going in a circle (Or the fact that you don't believe they use any driving tricks) makes me wonder if you've really watched either of the two closely. Competetive Smash is repetive and many different people have different playing styles. Hungrybox and Mango play two different Jigglypuffs. A Young Link main won the last (or the one before last) Apex (which is the largest Smash tournament. Gimpyfish is an incredibly good player, and he only plays Bowser. Mew2King went through frame data and code in an effort to make sure that he could get everything out his main. Melee players have discovered new tricks such as Wavedashing and L Canceling, two things that turned the competetive scene on it's head. It may look the same because there's only 13 moves, and not all of them are useful at every single moment. But just because you're unfamiar with something enough to where it looks the same doesn't mean that it is really the same.

And regarding stages, there is no stage that is only banned because it's disruptive to regular play.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Banned_stage
You can read this list and there's no way that you can't say "I can atleast understand why someone would ban this stage." I don't agree with every banning (there's stages that I would want to be legal) but even then I at least understand why the stage would be banned.

Regarding NASCAR, they go in a circle because they're trying to go as fast as they can as safely as they can. You can't go 200 mph and do twists and turns. It becomes a lot more dangerous (and NASCAR is pretty dangerous as it is) and the cars wouldn't be able to handle it. I don't know what you're referring to as driving tricks, but the ability to drive a car almost 200 mph that weighs nearly a ton and not crash into the wall or another car while attempting to pass said car is a driving trick in itself. The fact they are able to handle their car and not kill themselves while going nearly 200 mph is a driving trick in itself. Don't try to pull the NASCAR is a bunch of care going in a circle, I'm not having any of that shit.

[Darky's Reincarnation]

...I do not see the point in this post by Sakurai.

it revealed samus her butt

people we're wondering if it would be back, and it is.

[Terminal Devastation]

I'm from Arkansas man, of course I've watched NASCAR

The fact that you assume that every strategy used in competetive Smash is the same, that players haven't tried to utilize their characters to their fullest potentials OR that NASCAR is simply a bunch of cars going in a circle (Or the fact that you don't believe they use any driving tricks) makes me wonder if you've really watched either of the two closely. Competetive Smash is repetive and many different people have different playing styles. Hungrybox and Mango play two different Jigglypuffs. A Young Link main won the last (or the one before last) Apex (which is the largest Smash tournament. Gimpyfish is an incredibly good player, and he only plays Bowser. Mew2King went through frame data and code in an effort to make sure that he could get everything out his main. Melee players have discovered new tricks such as Wavedashing and L Canceling, two things that turned the competetive scene on it's head. It may look the same because there's only 13 moves, and not all of them are useful at every single moment. But just because you're unfamiar with something enough to where it looks the same doesn't mean that it is really the same.

And regarding stages, there is no stage that is only banned because it's disruptive to regular play.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Banned_stage
You can read this list and there's no way that you can't say "I can atleast understand why someone would ban this stage." I don't agree with every banning (there's stages that I would want to be legal) but even then I at least understand why the stage would be banned.

Regarding NASCAR, they go in a circle because they're trying to go as fast as they can as safely as they can. You can't go 200 mph and do twists and turns. It becomes a lot more dangerous (and NASCAR is pretty dangerous as it is) and the cars wouldn't be able to handle it. I don't know what you're referring to as driving tricks, but the ability to drive a car almost 200 mph that weighs nearly a ton and not crash into the wall or another car while attempting to pass said car is a driving trick in itself. The fact they are able to handle their car and not kill themselves while going nearly 200 mph is a driving trick in itself. Don't try to pull the NASCAR is a bunch of care going in a circle, I'm not having any of that shit.

Three things I'd like to note:
Understanding why, doesn't mean those reasons are good enough for it to be that way (Stationary and/or predictable hazards disrupt play? Seriously? those cases should just be an unwritten guideline rather than explict bans.)

Secondly, you have to admit NASCAR looks like a bunch of cars driving in a circle when they aren't crashing, and is both way harder than it looks and a lot more fun to be in.

Finally, in many competitive games, you only get interesting and varied play at the top and bottom levels. Since the bottom doesn't know what generally works, and the top know how to do what generally works so well, they know how to come up with innovative ways to counter it.

[Gwen]

Jesus christ that banned stage list is ridiculous.

[[robo9]]

@Terminal Devastation
Many of the stages on the ban list also have other reasons for being banned, and not simply because of the hazards and disrupting the gameplay. A lot of the stages are banned because of the threat of camping. Brawl has several stages that are legal with hazards (US list, at least because of some ridiculous Meta Knights in Japan) that includes Rainbow Cruise and Halberd.


Don't get me wrong, I'm really not too big on the giant ban list either. I mean, a lot of them are banned for good reason, because some stages absolutely cripple characters or give such an advantage that it would be unfair. That, and a lot of the stages make it easy to camp