Smash Bros: Project M!

[Koopaul]

I always thought his head looked too big in Melee, it still does.

[TomGuycott]

Well clearly the people behind the project wanted to retain the Melee look, either for consistency or simply because they enjoy it. Based on his original game proportions it is about right, but these days his head HAS shrunk a bit.

[Ton]

Looks like Mewtwo's alternate costume will be his armor from the anime.

[Kriven]

I finally decided to try out Project M and... it's kind of meh. I really like what's been done with Wario so far, particularly the effort put into keeping his character (such as the arm flapping with his new smash attack), but other changes have been really weird and, in my opinion, in the wrong direction. Why remove Charizard's Rock Smash attack for a generic fire blast? Side-B is now practically a carbon copy of his aerial attack, and I don't understand why. What is wrong with Rock Smash? Ivysaur has been nerfed practically into an unusable state. I mean, Solar Beam is cool, but Bullet Seed is way more useful. Whatever that launch-seed Down B is kind of a waste. If anything, Solar Beam should be the new Down B and Bullet Seed should come back. Reducing the range of his lower aerial leaves him far too open to self-destruct, and making his upper aerial launch him down like that is just a crime for a character who doesn't have a proper recovery.

Opposite, Squirtle is beautiful. Unfortunately, none of the Pokemon Trainer's team have a Final Smash. I understand that this has to do with having separated them, but that brings up the question: why are they separated? How was the Pokemon Trainer unbalanced as a character? I don't get it.

Which brings me into the biggest gripe I have: balance is killing the game. Not that balance is a bad thing, because it's not, but the intense focus on it has made Project M feel less like Super Smash Bros. and more like... every generic fighting game out there. Player ingenuity is replaced with specifically tailored movepools and stats. Every attack has a purpose, and deviating from that purpose often results in death. I dunno. I'm not very happy with this aspect of the game.

I'm also wondering how having a bunch of characters without a Final Smash is balanced.

[TomGuycott]

That sounds incredibly stupid that they divided up the three Pokemon Trainer characters. I also think the reasoning behind removing Rock Smash (if it wasn't a balance thing, which is entirely possible) MIGHT have been the fact that Rock Smash is considered kind of a crappy attack in the Pokemon universe. However, that SHOULDN'T be the reason you remove an attack, especially since I don't remember it being THAT bad.

[Ton]

I don't think that's why they removed Rock Smash, but I'm not sure what their reasoning is.

The rationale for splitting the Pokemon up is probably so the player isn't forced to switch, which I totally understand. It'd be nice if the Trainer was an option for those who liked it, though.
Balance doesn't bother me. I'd rather everyone be useful and usable than everyone playing as the same three characters.

[Ark Kuvis]

Ivysaur is actually one of the best characters in the game! While I miss Bullet Seed, Ivysaur has a bountiful amount of tricks up it's sleeve without it.

That bulb mechanic, where most "spore" moves have a sweet spot that actually recovers damage AND charges the solar beam, is one of Ivysaur's top selling points. Not to mention his Seed Bomb attack, which can put opponents in a "stunned" state if you don't watch out for it. Ivysaur also got a nice sweet spot with his Vine Whip special, just giving him ANOTHER killing move. Razor Leaf? God damn it's one of the best projectiles in the game.

But I know that some people aren't huge on the whole "let's separate the trainer" notion. I get it. I thought the Stamina mechanic was kind of lame, and we basically got three brand new characters out of it, so I wasn't TERRIBLY bothered by it.

And I think Charizard got Heat Wave as his side special to just generally reduce the start up frames on Rock Smash. I personally prefer the change, since I thought Rock Smash was kind of really out of place on the Fire/Flying type! Charizard got a neat little down special too in the form of Fly, allowing him to pursue aerial opponents.

[[robo9]]

The thing is, a lot of the changes were made from a competetive stand point. I mean it was hard to hit anyone with rock smash in Brawl, and was slightly redundant given his smash was better anyway. Heat wave gives a quick GTFO move for spacing. I find it perplexing that someone would complain about the game being too balanced. There's barely player ingenuity in Smash anyways, seeing as how most of the high ranking tourney members use the same 4 or 5 characters. You may get the occasional Gimpyfish, but that's nothing compared to the amount of Spacies/Marth/Shiek players in Melee and the Metaknights in Brawl.

Also, they don't really give a shit about Final Smashes because items aren't supposed to be on. It's kinda geared to the competetive side

[Pik]

@Kriven
Don't quote me on it, but Charzard, Squrtle, and Ivysaur'll probably have final smashes in later versions. I'm a modeler for the Project M team- However, I'm not completely in touch with what the moveset developers are doing, so I'm not certain.

[Kriven]

From what I gathered on Smash Boards, they're doing what they can to solve the Final Smash detection issue, which is reassuring considering the developments they've made so far.

You're a modeler for the project, though? That's really cool. Do you work on the animations, color palettes, and costumes? Or are you involved with the new characters? I've been really impressed with the visual aspects of the project, so I guess kudos goes to you for that.

---

The thing is, a lot of the changes were made from a competetive stand point. I mean it was hard to hit anyone with rock smash in Brawl

How is making something easier to perform at all competitive? That seriously removes skill from the equation, and I don't follow the logic at all. Not to mention that the Project M team has already utilized similar abilities with performance trades, and that's all Rock Smash is. It's a high-risk/high-reward attack.

Also, they don't really give a shit about Final Smashes because items aren't supposed to be on. It's kinda geared to the competetive side

This is false. "They" have openly stated to wanting to provide as full an experience as possible, including items and single player modes. In response to an assertion almost exactly like the one you made.

And anyways, it's not balance itself that bothers me. It's the illogic behind what is considered "balanced", and the samey feeling I get from most characters. How is Rock Smash actually unbalanced? How did removing the little toot-toot steam from G&W's Up Air make him more balanced?

Honestly, I get a very combo-centric MvC/SF feel when I play Project M. That isn't the only type of competetive play available to a game like Smash, and it actually seriously hurts it. It's cool what they did to Lucario, because he's one specific character, but I really don't see why every player has to be a combo-fiend. It doesn't seem like a focus on balance so much as a focus on moving really fast and performing flashy moves.

[Koopaul]

Yeah why do all fighting games have to be combo based? I think combos cheapen the experience. I always said that Smash is about using chaos to your advantage, being unpredictable and managing your own strategy playstyle.

Playing by combos means doing the same set of moves or strategy over and over again. There's no room for creativity in a world where you string a set of grabs and jumps. If you're playing as Yoshi you got to do this and if you are playing as Falco you got to do that. How... boring!

However unlike Kriven I am all for balancing characters. I think Smash Bros should be a competitive experience with balanced characters, but I don't think competitive = more combos.

[Kriven]

I think you are all misunderstanding me.

I am not against strategic and statistical balance, I am against homogenization and combo-fiend gameplay.

Making Ganondorf faster and more athletic is good, it makes him competetive. That kind of balance I dig. Same with stuff like making Bowser heavier to compensate for his stature.

[Ark Kuvis]

Honestly, I think combos in a game like smash are pretty fun and neat to pull off. Considering it's not ALWAYS a guarentee that you'll get them in a situation where you can combo them! Mario's aerials can be mixed with his grab and ground game to pull off a few of these, but it's not necessarily how he gets the kills. It's more or less an easy way for the plumber to rack up damage.

But I'm a bit scrubby at Project M, Mario and Sheik are the only two I can combo well with. Bowser? I think Bowser relies more on his Super Armor than combos. Krivin, have you tried him yet? I find Bowser and Lucario the two characters that have the most unique playstyles, especially from their Vanilla Brawl counterparts.

[Kriven]

Yes, i've played Bowser and I enjoy what they've done with him. i'd like to see them refine the Koopa Klaw a little more, because it doesn't feel polished right now.

My favorite is Wario. He's easy for me to get the hang of, and I love the amount of effort they've put into characterizing him (i can't get over how he flails around after that kick).

It''s not all bad, I'll be following it. It's just not what I expected.

[Jermungandr]

... "They" have openly stated to wanting to provide as full an experience as possible, including items and single player modes. ...

This makes me curious. Are they capable of modifying the A.I. so that the computer-controlled opponents can compensate for the changes being made to their move-pools?