Questions for a female gamer

[Devicho]

I think one thing that you could brig up, if interested, is simply how female characters are often portrayed compared to male characters. Stuff like MMOs and other online games seem to be the worst offenders, but in general many female characters are created with a male audience in mind and so are designed to be eye candy to said audience, to the point where you get ridiculous things like female warriors in armor that would get them killed if they seriously wore it to combat. Male characters almost never get this treatment. It's just something I personally find off-putting because damn it if I just got a neat pair of pants for my character I don't want to put it on and it's suddenly a bikini bottom or short shorts.

[Koopaul]

Hm I was worried that would get brought up again. It's always an interesting discussion I think about a lot, but I know that it sadly can get personal.

[Devicho]

It's a perfectly legitimate thing to bring up if you're discussing women in games, or media in general. I don't see why I should have to hide my relative discomfort just because someone on the internet might not like me discussing it.

[[robo9]]

It's a perfectly legitimate thing to bring up if you're discussing women in games, or media in general. I don't see why I should have to hide my relative discomfort just because someone on the internet might not like me discussing it.

I think Koopaul is just referencing the whole Male Gaze thing. But considering the fact that the forum is a lot more chill (and a few people no longer visit) I'm sure that something like this could go a lot more smoothly

[Koopaul]

He's right it is something that I am forever ashamed of and still haunts me. I feel extremely guilty everytime the topic is brought up.

[Devicho]

It's a perfectly legitimate thing to bring up if you're discussing women in games, or media in general. I don't see why I should have to hide my relative discomfort just because someone on the internet might not like me discussing it.

I think Koopaul is just referencing the whole Male Gaze thing. But considering the fact that the forum is a lot more chill (and a few people no longer visit) I'm sure that something like this could go a lot more smoothly

I'm aware that that's what he was referencing, but the way he phrased it bothered me. It just sounded very sweep-it-under-the-rug.

[Koopaul]

I don't see why I should have to hide my relative discomfort just because someone on the internet might not like me discussing it.

Well how do you think I feel? It's not that I'm uncomfortable with what you have to say, it's about how uncomfortable people will be with what I have to say.

See, I've been told to hide my opinions because people on the internet might not like me discussing them. I agreed because I'm conscerned about the community.

But if I am to agree to this notion so should the community as a whole. What do you call it when some people are allowed to express their opinions while others aren't?

[Devicho]

If you're up to it, you're free to explain how me saying that a point is worth discussing coupled with you voluntarily not talking about certain issues equates to censorship of differing opinions. You're free to talk about whatever you like so long as it doesn't break forum rules, although I personally think that if you're that worried about your opinions making others uncomfortable it may be a good idea to reflect upon those opinions to see why they might be bothersome.

[Sol]

I don't see why I should have to hide my relative discomfort just because someone on the internet might not like me discussing it.

Well how do you think I feel? It's not that I'm uncomfortable with what you have to say, it's about how uncomfortable people will be with what I have to say.

See, I've been told to hide my opinions because people on the internet might not like me discussing them. I agreed because I'm conscerned about the community.

But if I am to agree to this notion so should the community as a whole. What do you call it when some people are allowed to express their opinions while others aren't?

If you're trying to say that the pain of worrying about offending someone, and the pain of actually having something offensive said to you are equivalent, they are not.

When someone says "Don't say those things, you're being insensitive" and your rebuttal is "Don't criticize me, you're being insensitive to my insensitivity," the root of the problem is still Your Insensitivity, which is your issue to deal with, not anyone else's.

On top of this, not all opinions are equal. If someone has an uninformed opinion about a subject, obviously they are allowed to have that opinion. However, throwing it into what is supposed to be a serious discussion by people with firsthand experience (in this case: women in the video game community) who are knowledgeable about the topic, and expecting it to be treated with the same respect as those peoples' opinions just detracts from the discourse. (And because the person's opinion is uninformed, they will likely offend one or more of these people with it, because they do not have a firm grasp of the subject. Especially when the subject involves the very identities of the people participating in the discussion.)

Edit: Devicho's right on the money, it's a matter of tact, not censorship.

[PatientZero]

Yo lemme just jump in here and preach a little. (Because as a White Dude that is what I do)

For the record, this isn't directed at anyone in particular, I'm not trying to spark an argument, just I know we've got young-uns here and there are various cultural, social and educational clashes involved, I'm not passing judgement here or claiming I'm any better or worse, that's just the situation as it stands.

Anyway, this is the statement; in any discussion of minority issues where you are not directly a part of that minority, your job is essentially to shut up and listen.
I know that sounds blunt, but that's only because it's so important, and because we're discussing female perspectives and experience here, I say that as someone who's job is to shut up and listen.
Obviously you can ask questions and if invited, to share your perspective, but the important thing is to make sure the experiences and feedback from the minority in question are the ones that are represented.
(And before anyone chimes in and makes themselves look silly, a "minority" doesn't simply mean "less people", in this case we're talking about groups that are under represented, misrepresented or in many cases absent entirely from popular media or social/political/cultural discussion or debate)

Oh, and the argument that you think everyone should be treated equally everywhere and forever is a poor rephrasing of "I refuse to acknowledge the problem and will do nothing to try and fix it but want to be praised anyway", I agree that if everyone thought that way and acted that way there would be no need for these types of discussions, but that's not the world we live in and pretending we do isn't about to change it.

I don't want to go off on a tumblr-esque ramble here, but the reason for this is something the majority doesn't need to consider and so naturally it doesn't occur to them, let's pretend we're in a thread about the experiences of female gamers, because we are, the reason there aren't threads specifically to share the experiences of male gamers is because those are everywhere else.

I wouldn't even be bringing this point up, but this thread has pretty quickly shifted from being "Questions for a female gamer" to "Male opinions on female gamers", and to be brutally honest I can find that anywhere, so I actually only care about the former.

[Koopaul]

EDIT: I think there was confusion. I was actually told by moderators not to discuss it. I did not make this decision myself. So the censorship was more of an advisory on some members part, not my own.

I read your post Patient Zero. But one cannot just shut up and listen. This is an important discussion that will affect a medium for everyone. But this is better suited for another topic, since it is invading poor Kat's thread. Still I feel it should be discussed so in order to prevent further derailing I'm thinking about bringing the topic elsewhere.

[Kosheh]

sorry for quoting the smallest part of your post but

tumblr

you know, maybe I'm just being Opinions: The Movie, but my venting in my first post kinda stemmed from the fact that the internet seems more

well, generally accepting thanks to social media and outlets like tumblr.


i now read my post and realize it's "oh, this is what i think, a 27 year old distinguished male with years of life experience" and then i realize

there are 18-year-olds practically raised on xbox live that still manages to be caught up in the shitstorm that's misogyny, and i'm turning a blind eye to it...

despite the fact that i'm cool and wished my opinion would resonate over the land and turn the internet into one hip, happenin' place where no one holds prejudice
that's simply not true. misogyny in the gaming community is still an issue in 2014, and it's very real (and possibly worse than it was previously. thanks, xbox and bad parenting)




man, i feel unimportant.
thanks pz for pointing out the realities of this shit internet
(shiternet)




I think what I meant to express in my original post was that from my experience at cons, i feel as if (keywords: feel as if, ymmv) most con-goers nowadays share the views of the brighter side of the internet (you know, the side that lives on tumblr and loves homestuck and korean pop), and you've got far, FAR less of the 4chan hivemind nowadays (the only mindset that would heckle at this panel), so i felt like a panel on girls who play games is just kinda...really pandering, if anything and feeds into the latter mindset.

with that said, i don't know - i feel like i'd present both sides of the coin - how prejudice against female players playing videogames sucks and how at the same time, guys think a girl who plays games HE enjoys is like, a pinnacle of divine sexiness

and how these both suck, as the latter - gadzooks! - is actually still considered prejudice.

it really depends on how you want to spin it imo, as it's not really clear who the intended audience is.
like, if it was a con tailored primarily to gaming with a large attendance (i.e. MAGFest) you might approach the panel differently as opposed to like, a small-town con which most of the attendees are tumblrites

[Kriven]

Oh, and the argument that you think everyone should be treated equally everywhere and forever is a poor rephrasing of "I refuse to acknowledge the problem and will do nothing to try and fix it but want to be praised anyway", I agree that if everyone thought that way and acted that way there would be no need for these types of discussions, but that's not the world we live in and pretending we do isn't about to change it.

Nope.

your job is essentially to shut up and listen.

And nope.

Shutting down half the room is not going to fix any problems, it's going to make both halves of the room feel oppressed for different reasons.

Yeah, we don't live in an equal wold yet, you're right. But advising people not to treat all individuals equally is not helping us get there. Telling people they don't have an opinion because they aren't the minority is not helping us get there.

[psychospacecow]

So, when is it and if it already happened, how was it?

[Vipershark]

To PatientZero:
Before you reply to Kriven's last post (because it's really likely that you will), I'd like you to first read this thread and then redirect your answer to Kriven there.

To everyone else, let's get this thread back to the topic of Kat's panel, please. All other discussion can go in the other thread.