Rare Appreciation Thread

[Ark Kuvis]

Outside of Kiddy Kong, I think DKC3 holds up pretty darn well. I noticed a lot of you guys like DKC2, and I mean, it's amazing I know. But DKC3 also has a charm to it.

Each level has a unique gimmick. You'll rarely if ever see something repeated in a level of DKC3. Remember how there was that one level you had to use Ellie the Elephant (who was a fairly unique animal buddy and had all kinds of uses) to navigate a dark sawmill and avoid the mice enemies? Or how about traversing a tree with a giant saw cutting it down? Not to mention the really spooky factory level where you're targeted by a bazooka enemy and have to avoid fire. It might be my personal opinion, but this kind of diversity made a lot of the levels stick out, and made them pretty memorable.

The Northern Kremisphere was never as memorable as Krocodile Isle, and the music left a lot to be desired. The atmosphere that the previous two DKC games had never fully translated to DKC3, but the levels are still as solid as ever. I kind of feel like Rare prioritized the level design in DKC3 over anything else. It helped keep the DKC formula fresh. Remember, these games came out annually.

[E-Man]

Unfortunately, they turned the same mechanic into a gimmick - where Dixie could use Kiddy to break platforms/act like a barrel. Unfortunately, that mechanic wasn't really used outside of the first world in the game and it just felt gimmicky as the game practically forced you to use Kiddy Kong to utilize Dixie just as you would have in the previous title. This literally is what killed Kiddy as a good character for me - in the previous two titles, you could use both Kongs more or less interchangably (a little less so in the second game due to Dixie's hair-locopter, but generally the only difference are how they hold barrels - overhead or in-front) but the gimmicky partner mechanics forced you to use one over the other and have both Kongs on top of that - and the game really shoved the usage of Kiddy Kong in your face (which could arguably be "good level design" but maybe if he wasn't so godawfully frustrating to control, I wouldn't be complaining)

Basically, Kiddy and Chunky are bad Kongs because they are attempting to do what an already established Kong (AKA Donkey Kong) should have done.

From what I've heard, Rare was going to make DK playable in the third game. Sure, DK wasn't much fun to play as compared to Diddy in the first game, but why they dropped that idea and replace him with some baby monkey is beyond me… Heck, he's not even that cute of a baby! True, he looks better than Baby Kong of the CGI animated series, but he was a long way to go before he even gets half the appeal of Baby DK.



Also, why even use Chunky to begin with in DK64? I understand that they want to avoid using any of the characters from the other two DKC games (even though they did use Wrinkly), but there was no excuse to have Chunky in there when DK was just fine on his own. All they could have done to get that heavy lifting part sorted out was to make it an ability DK gets a little later in the game from Cranky and merge it with the ability to pull levers. Thus, you have no need for Chunky and you still get the backtracking Rare was trying to active.

[Kriven]

Chunky's inclusion in DK64 has to do with Rare's approach to protagonist during the early-polygon era. The philosophy seems to be that protagonists are always the middle ground--they aren't the fastest, the strongers, the highest jumper, but they are proficient enough at all of those things not to be left in the dust. When it came time to create specialized obstacles for the DK Krew, Donkey Kong was given the vanilla protagonist path and there needed to be a more generic "strongman" character to do the heavy lifting.

I don't really agree with that methodology, because it does strip away some of the more defining aspects of a character and create a lot of confusion in other areas (like Diddy Kong suddenly being a lightweight character when he should be about as large as Mario and played the middle ground in Diddy Kong Racing). That's what was going on there, though.

[Jermungandr]

That is still the general approach that is taken in games even nowadays though. Mario, the most notable example, is always the most balanced character when there are multiple characters to choose from; even when featured in games outside his own franchise (Smash Bros). I am somewhat in-between on whether or not this is a good idea. I mean, logically it's sound, because you would expect the main character to be the well rounded one with few flaws holding him back, but the thing is that people tend to choose the characters that have overwhelming advantages in the areas that they deem the most important. In this example, I always choose Luigi, because I value higher jumps and slower falls. My second choice would almost always be Peach, for her more controlled jumps and distance advantage. Because people tend to stray away from the well-rounded character, that means less people ever chose the primary protagonist, which is not really a good thing.

(That is probably one advantage that the Sonic franchise has over most; people value speed the most in his games, and he is always the fastest character. So at least they are doing one thing right.)

---

By the way, it turns out one of my favorite co-op games of all time is a Rare game, a fact I did not realize until someone mentioned it in the Tropical Freeze thread.



(Incidentally the guy playing in this video is skipping over a lot of secrets and bonuses).

I never actually beat the game and I don't own a copy of it anymore due to it being stolen by my stepbrother years ago so I haven't actually played in ages ... but I do remember it fondly.

[EDIT]: Okay this is super neat.

[Kriven]

Right, but most characters are created for that purpose.

Donkey Kong wasn't. They took a character with pre-established attributes for being large and strong and squashed them into a more traditional mode. Then they created Chunky Kong to fill the niche that DK's natural abilities would have occupied had he been treated less generically. Instead of embracing what makes DK special and unique, they made him "The Protagonist."

As opposed to the Wario Land franchise, for example, which acknowledged that Wario was a brute and gave him a playstyle and obstacles that reflected it.

[Jermungandr]

I was agreeing with you, dude.

[Kriven]

That is still the general approach that is taken in games even nowadays though.

Made the whole post read like: "But that really isn't a legitimate issue because that's just how games are made."

[Jermungandr]

The first couple sentences were merely observational because your statement made it sound like it was an ideology exclusive to Rare. I was just pointing out that it is a common feature. My actual opinion starts with "I am somewhat in-between". I apologize for any confusion.

[Kriven]

It's okay, I wasn't offended or anything.

I guess I caused the confusion by making it sound developer-exclusive, heh.

[Koopaul]

The big problem with DK64 was that many of the collectables were divided between the Kongs. That made grabbing everything a real pain.

However, Banjo-Kazooie did the collectathon thing right! The way the worlds were designed made you want to explore them. Things were hidden in an intuitive way. You were like, "Oh there's a little path here." or "What's behind this hut?" The design made exploration fun and natural. It was a giant treasure hunt, and I enjoy my treasure hunts!

[E-Man]

Chunky's inclusion in DK64 has to do with Rare's approach to protagonist during the early-polygon era. The philosophy seems to be that protagonists are always the middle ground--they aren't the fastest, the strongers, the highest jumper, but they are proficient enough at all of those things not to be left in the dust. When it came time to create specialized obstacles for the DK Krew, Donkey Kong was given the vanilla protagonist path and there needed to be a more generic "strongman" character to do the heavy lifting.

I don't really agree with that methodology, because it does strip away some of the more defining aspects of a character and create a lot of confusion in other areas (like Diddy Kong suddenly being a lightweight character when he should be about as large as Mario and played the middle ground in Diddy Kong Racing). That's what was going on there, though.

When you put it that way, it makes sense to make DK the middle man. In that regard, though, why couldn't they use a more interesting character than Chunky then? If you play the battle mode after getting 15 Banana Fairies, you unlock Krusha as a playable character! Sure, it's better if DK was the strongman on the team, but how often do you play as a baddie? Give Krusha some cooler abilities than Chunky and I can see him being more liked.

Otherwise, to reduce the amount of characters and still give DK his rightful role as a strong Kong, it would be better to start the game out with Diddy Kong instead and make him the jack of all trades.

[Koopaul]

While I can understand making DK the middleman in that game, he really suffered for it. DK really had some crappy abilities in DK64 and was the least fun to play as. Pulling a lever? Really? Anyone could do those things.

[Kriven]

I spent so many days trying to unlock Krusha in single-player mode. >.>; I was determined to prove it could be done.

I agree that Diddy Kong is a far superior middle-man than Donkey Kong is... thinking on the Kongs that existed, I'd say Wrinkly Kong--as her ghostly form--would have made a more interesting fifth member than Chunky. She could even keep the invisibility power-up.

[Jermungandr]

Well one thing about that game which made the entire situation worse was, power served no actual function during normal gameplay. All Chunky's status as the "power character" really meant was that he gained specific power-themed abilities (lifting boulders, breaking walls) that were only actually useful in specific places in the game to unlock specific paths or mini-game barrels. His strength did not actually help him during normal gameplay, however, because every enemy takes the same amount of damage regardless of who is attacking them, and they also deal out the same amount of damage to every kong. And since his trade in for being the power character was poorer speed and jump, this left Chunky at an all-around disadvantage, since his only characteristic that should have been a plus was functionally useless.

In fact as far as normal gameplay goes, the only ones that had actual advantages were Lanky and Tiny; the former because of his ability to go up steep walls and an attack with longer reach than anyone else, and the latter because she could jump and hover further than anyone else.

[Kriven]

Lanky's handstand also made him the fastest runner of the Kongs.

Trying to remember back thirteen or so years, heh. I'm pretty sure I used Lanky to get around much like Kazooie-mode in BKZ.