[Important Discussion] Assist Characters

[TomGuycott]

NOTE: this is NOT the official Assist Character discussion thread. This thread is only intended to related to how the assists will work. So far Assists have been good in individual threads, since it allows room for Critique. This thread's only intention is to decide what the community wants Assist Characters to be so that progress can be made to including them in the games proper.

Assist characters have been a part of TFR for a long, long time, and now that the game is coming to fruition in one or two programmed forms, it's high time we decide exactly how we want them to work.

What is important to note is that I am still tiptoeing around the limitations of the 2D Fighter Maker engine. For example, I can't have any custom selection screen as far as I know for Assist selections in the main Character Select screen.

There are some workarounds I have been experimenting with. There are three main topics I want us to discuss in this thread: selecting the assists, using the assists, and at what cost. I will go through the viable options I have and leave them here for consideration with the community.

Selection:
These are the main options for this I have toyed with in my concepts:

1. A secondary select screen after the character select screen. The issue with this is, although I have a theory for how to make this work, it ONLY is viable in Story mode unless I find something different in this program. Basically I'd be able to make a menu sort of from scratch in place of a cutscene in story mode, so it wouldn't work in Vs.

2. Each character has a predetermined roster of Assist characters. This, however, makes Assists more like a special move than an assist character, and makes matchups less unique. It is by far the easiest to program, however.

3. Pickups appear on the battlefield and summons a random assist. This is my least favorite option, because making functional pickups on the battlefield is not only harder to program, but it is also unfair and random.

4. Whatever way the assists are summoned, they are always random. This would limit the effectiveness of the assists because you don't know what you'll get.


Usage:
There are three options I have considered:

1. They are summoned by the use of a single button command, similar to Marvel vs Capcom.

2. They are summoned through a button command, making them more like a special move.

3. This is dependent on whether or not they are summoned via a pickup, but if pickups did exist then this option entails they appear instantly after it is picked up.


Cost:
Again, multiple options-

1. Costs a number of Gognio letters. Was thinking one or two, maybe dependent on assist's power.

2. Health, which is probably not the best option, but an option nonetheless.

3. A separate "assist" meter, probably just a ball that lights up to let you know you can call an assist. It is doable, though more work overall in engine.

4. Limited use in battle. You can only summon a specific number of assists per battle. Again, a little harder to do, but not impossible.



These are the concerns I've had regarding assist characters in this engine, and I want to know what you all think should be done. The game is for the community, and I want to know what the community wants. Get to discussing so I can get started on these crazy goofballs soon!

[Chaoxys]

I sort of like the idea of them being random. Then again, I'm only saying that because I like the gamble of randomized summons (like the pokemon in SSB) since you have a chance of getting something really amazing, or a dud. For anyone playing and taking the game seriously, idk if that'd work as well.

[[robo9]]

For what it's worth,my plan was 4, 2, and 1. A random one was selected at the cost of Gognio and used a specific input (It would've been like a characters 4th special. It fitted perfectly since you could do the QCF/QCB for the three specials and the assist because TFR uses 2 buttons)

I dislike the idea of a random thing polling up. Never been a big fan of items popping up randomly in fighting games and it was easier to code, tbh

[TomGuycott]

The only things I know for sure that I want is to use a button combination and for them to use Gognio meters. Everything else I want feedback, but I also wanted feedback on the usage and cost too.

[soulcaliburfan]

I think random would be a solid enough idea if we put a sort of stocking idea behind it. Let's say after a certain amount of time, you would get an assist... Maybe every 10 seconds of the fight or so(This number could change if matches are short or long, 10 was just a basic number example)? This doesn't mean you would have to do it right away, it would go to a little bar on the bottom where you and your opponent can see what you got on the roulette. Let's say on this bar that you can hold a maximum of three at any given point and to use the one that you want, it would be a single button. To choose the one you want, maybe make it one button to go directional left and one to go directional right on said bar.

I think that could be a solid enough system for assists. It keeps the battles interesting, there is no cheapness to it considering both sides would know what the assists are and know what they can do, plus it allows enough strategy with them without directly spamming them. You could put a limit to how many you gain per match as well, maybe just the first three randoms that you get. Depending on the amount of time you put in between, it might not matter though.

[psychospacecow]

Random, but why only have one kind of cost?

[TomGuycott]

Small update in regards to this: I can potentially make a random occurring assist for Vs modes and a pre-story mode menu that allows you to choose an assist character that will be yours throughout.

This will be a large undertaking, as I will have to make sure each character file has all the assist data, and pretty much have to manually add each one, even with a Common Image function built in engine. It won't be much different from adding new hit stuns and the like, though, and I've been doing that for days.

So my plan so far is making them a special move style button input at the cost of one Gognio letter. So what will it be: Random and a story menu? Or just random throughout?

[psychospacecow]

Can you copy paste in programming?

[Tellis]

Small update in regards to this: I can potentially make a random occurring assist for Vs modes and a pre-story mode menu that allows you to choose an assist character that will be yours throughout.

This will be a large undertaking, as I will have to make sure each character file has all the assist data, and pretty much have to manually add each one, even with a Common Image function built in engine. It won't be much different from adding new hit stuns and the like, though, and I've been doing that for days.

So my plan so far is making them a special move style button input at the cost of one Gognio letter. So what will it be: Random and a story menu? Or just random throughout?

Well, Marvel vs Capcom has you switch assists between every match, so if it's easier to make it random before every match then go with that, I'd say.

However, I'd argue that each assist having it's own unique number of uses would be the best way to go. It allows us to have a wide range of assist types and allows for more wild creativity for them if we can balance them out by number of uses. For example, maybe we could have Shade's (whose current effect is pretty damn disruptive to momentum) have 3-4 uses while maybe we could have Sengir's old "I'm too cool to fight" pose assist thing have like 10 or 12 uses since he'd act more as a meatshield than an attack. Though if it's out of Fighter Maker's abilities, totally understandable to go another way with it. I just think that'd be the best idea for the feeling we're going for. Another possible option for balancing is that more powerful assists simply have a longer cooldown before you can use them again, whereas weak ones can be used consecutively pretty often. Of course that would require Cost option #3 which you say would require more work as well.

Don't make them pickups and don't make them random for each usage, though. Those throw strategy completely out the window.

[NICKtendo DS]

I don't know where else to put this, since I deleted the topic in question. I decided to delete Previous' topic, since he didn't want to be in the game. It's a shame since I think he's well known here, but I respect his decision.

[E-Man]

With that said, though, Nick, it makes me wonder what other characters are going to get cut from the game. After talking with Star, I know he still wants to be a part of this, but what about any of the older characters?

[TomGuycott]

Most of the characters who are going to be included are already accounted for, so I don't think there is much need for worry on that front.

Most characters that have, say, only one finished animation or no animations at all are probably not appearing in the first run of the game.

[TheMario360]

I noticed that Quirby made an assist just for him. what if some assists are characters that were made by the creator of a playable character? Again in Quirby's case, his "assist" is from a comic he made. I had a similar idea, but, would that be a good idea?