TSR's Super Smash Bros Thread|SWITCH HYPE TRAIN NOW BOARDING

[Gwen]

I've never had a problem using them when I have to, and despite my roommates complaining that they're at a disadvantage to me when they have to use them, they always do just fine with them. I still prefer to use the gamepad or my 3ds to them but I don't mind using them. I'd like to get a pro controller eventually, but I gotta get that peach controller first heh.

[Iceman404]

I find the pro controller equally as comfortable as the GameCube one, been using it since day two. I haven't gotten the adapter yet because of its rarity, but recently I entered the competitive Melee scene for real two weeks ago. I find the placement of Joystick 2 is much more convenient below the buttons rather than above, and that has to be my only beef with it (aside from the lack of polygonal grooves around the joystick like the GCPad has.

Outside something as technical and high skill ceiling as Melee, I find it more comfortable than the GCPad though.

[recme]

I find it funny how out of the few competitive Smash players here, no one's main game is Melee.

yo, i would love to play competitive melee, but there are two reasons why i cant:

1. i dont have a gamecube controller

2. i dont have a copy of melee

sure, i can start on smash 64, but a pro classic controller isnt a good controller to be using. :\

[Shade]

So who do you all play the most? Like mains and whatnot?

Mine are Toon Link, Marth, G&W, and Morton.

Favorite is Toon Link, love them double smashes.

[Gwen]

Bowser Jr., Zero Suit Samus, Lucina, Villager, Duck Hunt Dog

but I love errybody aside from Dark Pit.

[recme]

heres my best in this order

toon link
diddy kong
sheik
pikachu
marth/lucina
captain falcon
donkey kong
jigglypuff
mario

[Helmo]

Duck Hunt is my dog.

[MrYoshbert]

In no particular order:

Kirby
Luigi
Pac-Man
Mr. Game & Watch
Iggy Koopa
Duck Hunt
Dedede
ROB

[[robo9]]

I main the Mii Gunner. The grenade is one of the best projectiles in the game. No commitment at all. My Mii Brawler isn't that bad either

I also fool around with ROB, Mario, Yoshi, and Lil Mac. Not that good with them, but eh

I find it funny how out of the few competitive Smash players here, no one's main game is Melee.

sure, i can start on smash 64, but a pro classic controller isnt a good controller to be using. :\

As in VC? Don't. Seriously. The VC Smash 64 is trash for competitive play. It drops inputs on certain frames. It's really fun for friendlies and general play. Just not competitive, where you could develop bad habits and get screwed over for something that's not your fault.

[BullockDS]

I find it funny how out of the few competitive Smash players here, no one's main game is Melee.

yo, i would love to play competitive melee, but there are two reasons why i cant:

1. i dont have a gamecube controller

2. i dont have a copy of melee

sure, i can start on smash 64, but a pro classic controller isnt a good controller to be using. :\

1. I recommend one of the new GCN controllers released for Sm4sh; they can be had for relatively cheap on Amazon at the moment.
2. If you have a Wii with GCN controller ports and you don't have a problem with "borrowing" games, softmod your Wii (it should be a fairly painless process, moreso if you haven't updated your Wii in a while) and get an ISO/backup loader for your Wii that supports GCN ISOs. Find yourself an NTSC-U Melee ISO, and problem solved.

My Sm4sh mains at the moment in no real order: Bowser (he's my top), Bowser Jr, Yoshi (holy shit he's actually good in this game), Dr. Mario, Link, Duck Hunt Dog, Pac-Man, Wario, Dio Brando (i.e. Mii Brawler), and occasionally Luigi... sheesh, mostly Mario folks in my stable.

@Sportoise: for what it's worth, my main Smash game is Melee and I play competitively here at my school. However, I'm just complete trash at it, especially compared to "real" competitive players; I can't even wavedash yet (not well enough for it to be worthwhile, anyways) :[.

[[robo9]]

We've gone 30 full days without an argument

Guys, if we can manage to break 30 days in the topic argument title, I'll do something amazing.

Just a reminder

[Mystie]

So who do you all play the most? Like mains and whatnot?

Mine are Toon Link, Marth, G&W, and Morton.

Favorite is Toon Link, love them double smashes.

Kirby, Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, and my Mii Brawler.

Lately, I've found myself getting pretty good with Robin as well.

[recme]

melee in a nutshell

Spoiler

since falco is technically a better character than fox, i wonder why his video didnt get the same treatment :^)

[[robo9]]

Wat? Fox is the best Melee character

[recme]

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/may/0...-list-pt3/

m2k quotes

I have believed that Falco was the best for a very long time since 2005 to the present based on numerous reasons.

Results is one reason. One reason is that not only do I lose to this character personally (despite being the best Marth and Sheik against Falco in the world in both matchups), but I see various Falcos always winning tournaments. Some notable ones that win majors all the time were PC Chris, Mango, and Dr PeePee. Various Falcos have won more major tournaments than any other character in the past 9 years, and I believe that really says something about how good the character is. Unlike Fox, he is easier to play consistently at a top level, making for higher levels of consistency.

Guaranteed combos are a lot more common with Falco than Fox. You cannot DI out of his combos as easily (usually not at all in many top level scenarios) and in many cases there is nothing you can do at all in many situations except for eating a large guaranteed combo. Fox, for instance, you can DI or smash DI his Dair to escape quickly, or DI down when he does Nair combos and then mix up your tech rolling options to have a 50/50 to escape the combo. Falco's combos are more guaranteed; his short hop Bair both autocancels and has more range, and Dair has much more range, he has a guaranteed spike (Dair) that you cannot meteor cancel, sets up for massive guaranteed combos on platforms (or even on FD is inescapable), and outprioritizes most moves without even trading. Once a Dair hits you, you are often going to eat a death combo in many situatons, or at least a solid punishment.

You can more easily react to edge guarding Fox than Falco, because when you jump off the stage, you can visually see if Fox chooses to use an Illusion or a Firefox. With Falco, because his phantasm (illusion) is a few frames faster, you cannot simply jump off stage to react to both options; instead, you have to pick one option and cover that one, and you will be unable to cover the other option usually. Fox's illusion is slow enough that you can often react to both options in many situations. (Falco's illusion also spikes you, making it more threatening should you get hit by it).

Falco also has solidly more range in almost all of his moves, and and he is heavier both horizontally (weight) and vertically (mostly terminal falling speed). The range advantage is pretty important because almost ALL of his moves have solidly more range than Fox.

Tech chasing is far more dangerous against Falco than Fox, because of 2 reasons. One reason is that his tech roll goes massively further than Fox's, meaning that if Sheik down throws Falco, and is trying to react in a way that will cover all the options, and Falco tech rolls away, he can usually spot dodge, jab, or dash away before the Sheik can regrab or dash attack him. Combine this with reason 2, which is tech in place + Shine.

You do not have to do this all the time (you can jab or buffer roll for example), but doing this about half the time is a very good mixup because it is very easy to combo off of the shine. Should you waveshine towards the enemy, you get a free huge combo (from jumping above them and Dairing at the last second before they escape the hitstun).

Even if you miss the waveshine and just do a regular shine, if they do not DI away (which will happen often since the Sheik is not expecting to be hit) you still get an easy combo. With Fox, you are less likely to get a waveshine combo in my experience (by a lot) than you are a Falco combo. But you can also react to all the options with Fox on tech chasing because of how little range his tech roll goes. You can have a delayed reaction on Fox, and still be able to dash grab his tech roll, where as if you have the same reaction time on Falco, you will miss him often.

Perhaps the biggest thing of all, however, is lasers. If you do not powershield consistently, these lock you down really hard. (And nobody has a higher than 50% powershield rate; and even when you do powershield, if the Falco just camp it does only 1% (half damage) back to Falco. Furthermore, if Falco decides to dash away (like he should usually be doing) after a Short Hop Laser, it automatically smash DIs away the laser away from Falco so that Marth's powershield grab from neutral stance won't even reach Falco. This means the only good approach to Falco is to run and hope you get the powershield and then lead it into a Grab or Aerial. Due to the fact that the powershield window is so incredibly small (and you may light shield by accident sometimes even if you do not think you are), this makes this type of approach rather inconsistent with most controllers and characters. Falco can also condition you with lasers and do combos like Mango's Laser -> F tilt (always works) or Laser -> F smash (works if you hit the opponent out of the air). You can be across the other side of the stage and still use the laser to get a guaranteed combo on the opponent in many situations. This also includes a jab-reset, into a forward smash, from across the entire stage on a missed tech (which happens often in my experience). In situations where you do not have a guaranteed combo, you can still condition them or put them in a situation where you can be safe (such as get in their face and dash away) but close enough that they have to use their human reaction time (12-15 frames) to decide that they probably have to take action, and then whiff a move and often be punished for it.

Shine-grab also grabs before you (any character) can shield grab, and laser-grab also grabs before you can shield grab. If you do not have a quick shine OOS or nair oos, then you must roll away or not be in that scenario to avoid this. You can also spot dodge but that must be timed perfectly and should Falco do anything else, you are going to get punished hard. Another pressure mixup is to rising Nair after shine (happens before anyone except maybe sheik can nair OOS), and pull backwards out of shield grab range (not even Marth can shield grab it). Fox can do this too however (and Fox's nair and pull back on shield after shine, is BETTER than Falco's slightly), but Falco's shine grab is better.

Why is Falco's shine-grab better? If Fox's shine hits, Fox gets absolutely nothing out of it except 4-5 damage and a neutral stance. If Falco's shine hits, it leads to a massive combo even if the grab part of the shine-grab whiffs. Most situations you also will not be DIing the shine, meaning you can do a FH Uair (or any aerial) and then do a combo from there. Even if you are DIing away the shine, Falco can always Short hop laser towards you into an F tilt or F smash. Reason number 2 that Falco's shine grab is better is because Falco's shine has 1 more frame of shield stun advantage than Fox's. Fox's shine to aerial is 1 frame superior to Falco's because Fox's jump is 2 frames faster than Falco's (in air frame 4 instead of 6), however since you do not need to be in the air to initiate the shine-grab, this makes Falco's shine-grab +1 better than Fox's, in addition to a shine-combo should the grab miss. Fox's shine grab can be better in a situation where you can up throw Uair to KO the opponent. Most situations it is not better however.

I have multiple reasons for thinking Falco is better than Fox, which many (from the top of my head) are listed above just from the top of my head. Despite Fox being more common as a secondary or among mid or high level players, the tournament results in the past 9 years as well as consistency and the theorycraft i listed above all support Falco as being the best character. I also personally believe Falco 60:40s Marth and Sheik, where as Fox 55:45s Marth and Sheik.

this is coming from the guy who analyzed melee frame data and properties of each frame and such. i believe that he knows what he's talking about.