GAMER LOUNGE 20XX (NO CASUALS!!)

[TomGuycott]

I think my main problem with the sorceress is that her chest literally looks like two balloons full of helium whapping around in her top. It's not distracting, it's not sexy, it's just dumb.

It is good for a laugh for like the first five minutes, but it gets old fast. Plus it's a bit uncomfortable when it boils down to the art team basically just being big pervs. There's a cutscene graphic in one of the levels (i forget the context and I can't check because my ps3 is broken) where there is an injured female knight or cleric who's just laying in shallow water almost spread eagle for absolutely no reason.

The art in that game is awesome though, like that cutscene graphic of an ancient king ghost. Looks badass as hell.


Edit: I might be misremembering the art, as I remember there was a mermaid too, and that was definitely some sort of water pin-up art. I swear there's a female knight too though.

[miyabi95_]

Tbh I've played enough games from Japan to have grown used to all the fanservice. The only times when fanservice REALLY bothers me would have to be in anime when it occupies 90% of screentime. But for the most part I can look past it and enjoy the media for what it is.

[Goemar]

When this kind of thing becomes perfectly acceptable - isn't that a kind of sad state of affairs?

"It's just a Japan thing" seems a bit like turning a blind eye. Gamers always want to not be seen as the stereotypical loner in the basement and yet we'll be fine with helium tits.

[Koh]

Nope, I say let the devs make whatever they want, however they want. Unless we're talking obvious bullshit game design, aesthetics like this have no bearing on the actual gameplay. I'd rather them make their dream game, than try to cater to an audience that doesn't exist.

[miyabi95_]

When this kind of thing becomes perfectly acceptable - isn't that a kind of sad state of affairs?

"It's just a Japan thing" seems a bit like turning a blind eye. Gamers always want to not be seen as the stereotypical loner in the basement and yet we'll be fine with helium tits.

(I'm not calling you out on anything, just giving a response. Also this might be super off-topic, so I apologize in advance.)

Spoiler

Yes, people like media with fanservice, and it's widely-accepted by people from around the world. But I don't see it as a huge controversial issue that needs to be "fixed." It just is. Think of Game of Thrones, being claimed by fans to be "Lord of the Rings for adults." Yet despite it's absurdities, it's been around for almost five years, is ongoing, has received around 9/10 ratings from critics, has received nominations for awards and even won a few, has had increasing viewer numbers, and has spawned a worldwide fanbase.

The same goes for games. All of these mature-rated action games that partially thrive on romance/sex scenes are still some of the greatest games known to mankind (I can't name any off the top of my head because I don't play them or know much else about them).

But that being said, no - it would appear that fanservice is not just a Japan thing.

[Dolphman]

The "It's just a Japan thing" argument is a bit invalid considering western comics, cartoons and games are just as guilty.
But one problem with western fanservice is most of the time, the artwork and style is just unappealing to find sexy.

Let's take a look at Jessica Rabbit for example.

Being based on 1930s/1940s pinup artworks, but way more exaggerated. With visible anatomy issues all over the place.
I guess you could say she's a parody of fanservice. Which is probably what they were going with in the movie.

Now how about Minerva Mink from Animaniacs? There's obvious reasons why she only had two episodes in the entirety of the show.

Doesn't help that she's an animal as Minerva's usually used as an example of the negative views towards furries, and it's easy to see why.

And then we have Rob Liefeld, Greg Land, and Greg Horn. We already know why they're called the worst comic book artists around.
I'd show examples but it's easier to google their art, as there's way too many to think off.

[Goemar]

The "It's just a Japan thing" was more an example of an argument one may use to deflect the issue, not my actual believe or opinion. Aka the excuse 14 year old me gave my mother playing Soul Caliber 2.

As for Game of Thrones, yes there's sex in it, but no one has giant inflatable breasts. A lot of the nudity is also quite awful (rape and being shame marched through the city) so I'd say it's more for story reasons. Even the 'fun' nudity at the start is more to build a certain awesome drawf. I mean if he didn't go to brothels a lot of later stuff just wouldn't have made sense. I'm not saying it's justified - sure the nipples could be covered and it would still make sense - and yes maybe somebody likes it for the 2 minutes of tits every now and again.

But no one is walking around with KK-cup tits mostly on show. It isn't constantly in your face nor unrealistic or dumb when people are naked. If one of the main characters had an enormous cleavage on show all the time then we'd be in the same ball park.

A reason I always found Power Girl (will edit this if name is wrong) incredibly dumb.


What I'm getting at is when characters seem to be designed by horny 14 year olds I think it looks really stupid and a bit of maturity would be nice.

I wouldn't want my (non-existent) daughter playing as the Soceress in Dragon's Crown and thinking there was no issue with it because to me that's just worrying.

[Koh]

Then you'd be an overprotective parent, which is one of the problems with society today. Overreacting to everything, oversensitive to everything. The proper solution wouldn't be to shield them from the world, but to teach them. How to behave appropriately, the difference between a virtual world and the real world, and that there's a time and place for everything. The virtual world is a place where anything goes, and the real world has certain rules people have to conform to.

[DragonDePlatino]

The "It's just a Japan thing" argument is a bit invalid considering western comics, cartoons and games are just as guilty.
But one problem with western fanservice is most of the time, the artwork and style is just unappealing to find sexy.

The absurd oversexualization of characters is absolutely "a Japan thing". It's also bad in the United States, yes, but not to the same extent.

In Japan there is a very famous pop artist called Takashi Murakami who is widely lauded as our generation's Andy Warhol. A lot of his work parodies the hypercommercialization of Japan, including the over-the-top representations of sexuality seen in Japanese media. If you have the stomach for it (very NSFW) look up the sculptures he's made. That's basically where Japan is right now. And there is no equivalent to it in the west.

My point being, even compared to the likes of Jessica Rabbit and Minerva Mink, Japan is freakin' insane when it comes to this stuff.

[Goemar]

Then you'd be an overprotective parent, which is one of the problems with society today. Overreacting to everything, oversensitive to everything. The proper solution wouldn't be to shield them from the world, but to teach them. How to behave appropriately, the difference between a virtual world and the real world, and that there's a time and place for everything. The virtual world is a place where anything goes, and the real world has certain rules people have to conform to.

I'm sure your kids will love the Rape-play games.

[psychospacecow]

Then you'd be an overprotective parent, which is one of the problems with society today.  Overreacting to everything, oversensitive to everything.  The proper solution wouldn't be to shield them from the world, but to teach them.  How to behave appropriately, the difference between a virtual world and the real world, and that there's a time and place for everything.  The virtual world is a place where anything goes, and the real world has certain rules people have to conform to.

I'm sure your kids will love the Rape-play games.

Goemar, I'm trying to respect you, but this is one of the most obvious and painful straw-man arguments I have seen this month.

Koh's not saying you should expose your kids to everything. He's saying you're overreacting. The fact that your first example after this statement is a pornographic game about raping indiviudals which has been BANNED IN THE UNITED STATES. The only game to have been banned in Argentina. The company that makes the game doesn't even distribute it anymore and never intended to do so outside of Japan.

[Goemar]

I'm just pointing out that the 'Virtual World' isn't a place where anything goes. That's a stupid thing to say in my own opinion.

I just find it a tad worrying when me being a bit uneasy about the over-sexualisation of the Soceress is seen as over-reacting. I mean her character design is just bizzarely weird. Like did no one turn around and say "Hey man, don't you think that's a bit much?" before the go-ahead was given?

I mean in the old Tomb Raider games Lara's chest got pretty stupid - I was just hoping the industry had matured a bit since then.

Weird perverted things are fine (hell I love Ranma) when the context is right. But to have such a ridiculous looking woman in a game just for the sake of it is hardly 'artistic' vision. It's just someone who needs to grow-up.

[Koh]

It's just a fictional character with bizarre anatomy; that's the extent of it. No one's saying you have to like the design, but you accept the character is clearly fake and then you move on; there's an entire game beyond that one character. If a child were to find the game and play it, you teach them that the character is fake, and they shouldn't expose themselves in such a sexual way. The game shouldn't have to do the parenting for you; that's what the rating system is for.

[TomGuycott]

I KNEW I was right, I did find that image I mentioned:

Tagged for big resolution, also possibly NSFW pose, even though completely armored

Eh, I'm just disappointed I can't feel completely comfortable playing this game co-op with my friends, or even just playing it in the same room as another human being. It just makes me feel awkward.

[miyabi95_]

I'm going to briefly move this conversation to something more related to character design...

Character designs can be extremely subjective, as shown by this conversation we've been having. This is why having a diverse variety of playable characters is important for particular games. For me personally, I pay attention to a game's visuals 70-80 percent of the time. The rest is gameplay and sound design.

Since it was pretty much the spark of our debate, let's look at the roster for Dragon's Crown from my perspective (I haven't played the game before so try to refrain from spoiling anything to me ><)...

Spoiler

I am a female gamer who is attracted to female characters, so when I pick up a game with multiple options for playable characters, I will most-likely pick one that is female.

Looking at Sorceress: yes, she is super voluptuous and has exaggerated proportions. This is very clear to me. Do I like it? Well, personally, boobs aren't everything for me, but whatever. But maybe this character has some clever aspects about her abilities and whatnot (which I hear she's probably one of the strongest).

Next to her is the Amazon. Very muscular, and wearing less clothing than Sorceress. Her proportions seem almost opposite to Sorceress, as her bust is significantly smaller and her tush is gigantic (in a more muscular fashion though). I usually prefer curves over muscles, so overall the design of the Amazon doesn't appeal much to me (I'm also not a huge fan of large blunt weapons).

Then there's the Elf. She comes with a much younger appearance and doesn't show much skin. She also wields a range weapon which for someone like me, might aid well in battle. Overall, I appreciate the design choices made for her. No, not because it's less sexualized. It just looks good to me, and I'll probably enjoy playing as her the most.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's a playable character out there for everyone, because for each individual player, there are characters that they just don't find appealing to themselves. It's not a bad thing at all. If anything, it's a great choice on the game's design team to include variety for the players.

Might I add that Vanillaware, the company behind Dragon's Crown and quite a few other cult RPGs, is very well-known for keeping their female designs pretty decent and not too sexualized. So for anyone who isn't a fan of the art direction of Dragon's Crown, I'll recommend their tamer titles such as GrimGrimoire, Odin Sphere, and Grand Knights History. There's also a game in the works called 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim. Not sure what kinda game it is or what it's about, but it looks interesting.