Can Someone help me understand these tiles? (references provided)

[golbez22]

I recently have been creating sprites for world objects like trees...rocks....boats....etc but I have long since been plagued by creating worlds that are under detailed, flat, and weak in concept. I come here because these forums have been my main source of support and cause of growth up until now.

I am trying to build a world in the perspective of a Zelda game, but try to supply sufficiently more detail and bring the world to life while still keeping things simple.

I have looked far and wide for some inspiration...I liked aspects of Midora (such as the 32x32 tiles), and then some of artists I found on other sites(the worlds they created that had overgrowth tall trees...seasons...just simple changing to the environment)...For a long while I thought to get results I would have to dish out money for a contract artist to realize even conceptually similar looking stuff to what I wanted to have, but I decided that gaining the ability to realize the pieces myself is what I really wanted. My progress is currently show in my last post HERE

Though I'm proud of the things I've made thus far I have yet to even vaguely create any tiles to match.

I have been working on the concept of a better 2d game experience by allowing for 90 degree camera rotations which allows worlds to develop without the problem of vision obstruction:

This was an early test using Minish Cap tiles; I still want more refinement on the concept, but for now these simple goals suffice.

Now here are the references I have found and a few reasons I like them:

This one feels like there isn't a grid and the trees are shown to have broken in a natural manner or been cut into stumps


This piece by the same artist have a brilliant grasp on the perspective I am going for, and how it should show and conceal certain details in the world (this gives a great use for the camera rotation to allow the player to explore some more details)


This piece though incomplete I thing perfectly captures the feel of how I want my base world to look before it is given tall grass...rocks...cloud shadows....wear and tear....etc Joseph Silverman has been a huge inspiration for solidifying my choice style


This is the image I have boiled down to be my absolute ideal style...this would be awesome if I could actually figure out the steps to creating this style, and apply it to have the height and edges of a Legend of zelda game

I have some limitations to take into consideration that are very key to accomplishing the world I want
1. each material type (IE dirt, grass, water, sand, etc) must be independent of each other aka have their own spritesheets
2. each material should be able to be placed next to each other and create a readable edge (difficult but do-able through defining which material shows over the other)
3. some materials will be treated as an overlay exclusively and cannot exist on their own (grass goes over dirt....snow sits on the ground and is not the ground even if it covers a majority of it...etc)

I have thought through many concepts, that I know must be true for my outcome to be what I need it to be, but I need help in order to get started...I have seen many tutorials on tiling and spriting but none of them have come close to explaining this level of design and I find myself not making any progress no matter how many times I try. Please help me I look forward to your response, and I will post any and all progress I make here on this thread. 

I Do Not Own Any Images Above

[golbez22]

here is my latest go...I feel we can work from here

[Kelvin]

Camera rotation's a tough thing to pull off in 2D, especially since you can't rotate smoothly, which makes it very jarring. I know Final Fantasy Tactics uses rotation, but that's technically a 3D game with 2D billboards for characters. True 2D camera rotation about a perspective can be seen in Sim City 2000, which allows you to rotate around different isometric viewpoints, but even then, it can be hard for the player's eyes to track the movement. In an orthographic game, a 90-degree rotation may not be as hard to follow, but it would still involve having to rebuild each room for every direction it can be viewed in. It might be more effective to use pseudo-2D by having a perspectiveless 3D environment with pixel-art textures, similar to what was done in Sonic Battle and Pokemon G4-5.

[golbez22]

The real hard part is the creating of the textures currently. I am planning on experimenting with the camera after I accomplish the look I want

[golbez22]

I have greatly come closer to my goals of remaking the style

[FarmerM]

I don't really do a lot of top perspectives but I think the basic technique for terrain is make a circle(like 9x9 tiles) that way you can corner and twist any way you would like. Keep the basic design fairly simple and add flare later with overlays and such.



The forest example you listed. I looked for a few points to check for tiling but didn't find any matches. Which leads to another method. Lots of work making everything "custom" or at least editing it so that it looks unique.

As far as camera rotation. Unless you are doing full top down 2D I really don't think it can work at least not smoothly and efficiently.
Your best bet, as Midi said, would be faux 2D.

[golbez22]

here is what I have created since last time

[FarmerM]

Pretty good. Again, I am not a master at this but I think the rock face needs to have a bit darker shading in some places so people can sense the texture a bit more.

[Sketchasaurus]

I'm wondering why you'd want to have maps that rotate 90 degrees, it just seems like a feature that would result in player confusion/frustration.

BUT THAT'S JUST ME.

I'd check to make sure that the rocky tiles don't look like they're copy-pasted and repetitive when you make wider platforms with a rocky surface. one way that I suggest fixing that is by trying the method shown in that orianart tutorial posted by FarmerM. Though, if you don't have access to photoshop, you can split the tile into quadrants and position them so the corners meet in the center.

Another thing: the top of the platform should be lighter than the sides, since you have a light source coming from directly above the rocks in 3D space.

[golbez22]

The rotation is to solve a problem that has arisen. the worlds and the heights of certain objects are generated....so how do you deal with large objects? if you have to scale a mountain you should be able to go up all sides, and also not be covered by a mountain if you are behind it...if your far enough away then the mountain can be filtered out but when super close idk how else to fix the issue

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I think the top could be something like this maybe

[Sevenstitch]

you should take a look at this

This game, Brandish for the SNES, had a rotating camera system.



As you can see, it.. isn't great. what with true 2d being what it is, making seamless camera transitions that mimic 3d reality are difficult to pull off.

I would suggest that if you really do want a game with full 2d graphics that has a fully controllable camera is to perhaps explore using a 3d engine to create a faux 2d world using 3d props so that you could actually rotate the camera in a true 3d perspective, while constraining to a 2d viewpoint.


As for your graphics, they are coming along nicely, looking forward to seeing more

[golbez22]

yeah I think faux 2d will be my best bet

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A very strange question....what would it look like if you created a basic "flat" template for a tile, then made a lighting map for it....would that be possible? shaders are powerful, and it might be able to save me months of work

[Kelvin]

Yes, it's called a bump map. The map works just like a height map does for terrain in a lighting system. The simulated light illuminates from one side and casts shadows on the other depending on the height of each pixel in the map. Games use this to make objects look like they have more detail without having to add more polygons.

[golbez22]

I created a displacement map, a normal map, and an ambient occlusion map (respectively) for my tree foliage

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I reduced the color count down to 8 from 35 with some help from members on here:

[golbez22]

Okay guys heres my progress, and my issue:
this is my best grass I could muster up
here is my attempt at tall grass... I'm pretty happy with the shape, but could be oblivious...and the pallet does not work well at all....I haven't been able to create a pallet that works so I'm asking help